Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#351

Post by megaman821 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

cwyers wrote: post #290

awillen wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, you've described the business models, but so what? In both cases, they still use the sales data available to them to create and sell their own products at the expense of third party sellers. In Amazon's case, that means diverting customers away from third party listings to their own. In Costco's case, that means making fewer purchases from third party sellers because the amount of shelf space available decrease…

In the Costco model, Costco pays up front for the vodka and incurs all the risk if the vodka doesn't sell. In the Amazon model, Amazon charges third-party sellers "rent" to be on the platform in the form of a cut of all transactions, but the third-party sellers still incur all risk for inventory that doesn't sell. And then Amazon turns around and uses the sales data from the third-party sellers to undercut them later…

I am not sure about Costco, but Best Buy does not purchase all the items it sells. For some items it only remits a payment to the manufacturer after the item has sold. Should they not get to see the sales data?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#352

Post by nielsbot » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

Black101 wrote: post #157

spaceribs wrote: post #2

Amazon should be nationalized. All these 3rd party companies want is a "farmers market", a stall to sell their wares. Give them the municipal software infrastructure they need to do so and maintain it as a public good.

should they also nationalize their cloud services?

sure

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#353

Post by hirako2000 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #289

awillen wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, you've described the business models, but so what? In both cases, they still use the sales data available to them to create and sell their own products at the expense of third party sellers. In Amazon's case, that means diverting customers away from third party listings to their own. In Costco's case, that means making fewer purchases from third party sellers because the amount of shelf space available decrease…

>"Okay, you've described the business models, but so what?" That the defining feature mate! Getting paid an extra to provide premium service to a customer is normal in some areas, but it's a crime of you hold public office.

S/he may argue that public officials manage to do it too, despite its illegality, hence it's Okay for Amazon to do so. For some, whatever Amazon does is okay, there will always be some other cases happening elsewhere that in some twisted ways are the same. I think most people are only ever consumers, and can't escape their subjectivity on this matter. They get theit toys delivered within a couple of days, the invoice says free delivery, they want things to remain that way so what ever Amazon is doing is okay (for them, for now)

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#354

Post by hirako2000 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

Closi wrote: post #246

Manuel_D wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still not understanding the distinction here. Costco and Amazon both sell company-brand products, alongside non-company products. Costco and Amazon collect and analyze sales data from the sale of both company and non-company products.

> Costco and Amazon collect and analyze sales data from the sale of both company and non-company products. It's similar, although personally I think the relationship between the companies is meaningfully different: Costco purchases product from manufacturers, and may choose to source product from other manufacturers (including under its own brand name). It uses it's own sales data to make this decision. Amazon acts a…

Amen.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#355

Post by judge2020 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

fredophile wrote: post #341

awillen wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely? I literally just described an example of Costco doing this right now with vodka. That's not a hypothetical - Kirkland brand vodka is a real thing. Your logic is backwards - when space is at a premium, making the most profit off each item in that space is critical. It makes more sense for Costco to do this than it does for Amazon, not less.

Store brand products are not new and not the issue. Let's pretend that Costco didn't currently sell vodka at all. If Costco wants to know if they should start selling vodka or bottling their own vodka and selling that they don't have access to the sales data from the liquor store next door to Costco. Amazon is letting other businesses take the risks and using sales data from those businesses to outcompete them.

But Costco does sell Vodka and wouldn't have made that product if Vodka sold 10% of what it actually sells. Because Amazon sells literally everything, is it a crime to do what Costco does, just on a bigger scale?

The only end-goal that would actually solve the problem fairly is if companies couldn't sell first-party products (or products from a partner where they have a vested interest in) in their store. If you just take care of the one company, you end up with other companies doing the same thing in 20 years like how iOS still has a default music player when MS got burnt for that with having a default browser.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#356

Post by neolog » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

cowpig wrote: post #348

Can we just rule that internet marketplaces cannot offer competing products on their own platforms? The fundamental conflicts of interest will always persist otherwise. This is going to sound radical but I think Google Search should be broken away from everything else and/or Google products should not be accessible via the search page (or allowed to buy ad space)

If you make something and sell it in a store, does that mean you're not allowed to sell other people's products in your store?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#357

Post by m1117 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

News love making their headlines in a way that people get angry.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#358

Post by idiotsecant » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

cowpig wrote: post #348

Can we just rule that internet marketplaces cannot offer competing products on their own platforms? The fundamental conflicts of interest will always persist otherwise. This is going to sound radical but I think Google Search should be broken away from everything else and/or Google products should not be accessible via the search page (or allowed to buy ad space)

Should walmart be able to produce and offer generic versions of brand name items on their shelves? Why or why not?

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#359

Post by hirako2000 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

lsaferite wrote: post #298

jasallen wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is between retailer and marketplace. Both Amazon and Costco are retailers, and both could use that knowledge to decide what products to self-source for better retail margins. Either way, still a retailer, but maybe also a manufacturer / wholesaler. But Amazon is also a marketplace. In that role it acts as a "rentable retail space". Using the data of the retailers in your marketplace to decide what to m…

So how do you factor in the recent ruling in California? > An appeals court in California has ruled that Amazon can be held liable for products sold through its marketplace by a third-party seller That seems to obviate the distinction of 'marketplace facilitator' vs. 'retailer' for them. That makes them much more like Costco with a special relationship with vendors to set up vendor-specific sections in their store. P…

Amazon doesn't see it that way, their optimised their business as an ad platform + logistic solution. Higher margins there than bothering acting as sellers with risky margins.

Re: Amazon knew seller data was used to boost company sales

#360

Post by hirako2000 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

lsaferite wrote: post #298

jasallen wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is between retailer and marketplace. Both Amazon and Costco are retailers, and both could use that knowledge to decide what products to self-source for better retail margins. Either way, still a retailer, but maybe also a manufacturer / wholesaler. But Amazon is also a marketplace. In that role it acts as a "rentable retail space". Using the data of the retailers in your marketplace to decide what to m…

So how do you factor in the recent ruling in California? > An appeals court in California has ruled that Amazon can be held liable for products sold through its marketplace by a third-party seller That seems to obviate the distinction of 'marketplace facilitator' vs. 'retailer' for them. That makes them much more like Costco with a special relationship with vendors to set up vendor-specific sections in their store. P…

Amazon doesn't see it that way, their optimised their business as an ad platform + logistic solution. Higher margins there than bothering acting as sellers with lower and not even guaranteed margins.