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Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

nytimes.com

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Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#191

Post by kossTKR »

passivate wrote: post #178
kossTKR wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also describe much of the tech industry i have been part of as "vulture-like" and a pretty dirty game, that's just how it is. Maybe i just have more cynical view of the state of capitalism in our current age, but i don't this view is controversial, or taboo to say out loud. I also know a couple of fantastic film makers, though i think Hollywood, and the movie industry is pretty rotten, and my friends are just…

Its just a normal human emotion towards members of your own tribe. I transitioned out from tech into biotech, and I would probably feel the same if people leveled accusations against all tech people. I am not interested in an intellectual monk like existence. Our subjectivity is what makes us human. But to answer your question, I have no way of knowing where you're coming from other than the information you volunteer…

I understand your perspective, i should have been clearer in who i was talking about.

I love science myself and love talking about it, i am not against scientists, quite the opposite.

That said i start out by linking to a highly relevant doc, that i think should make it clear what kind of business i am talking about. But i agree that there is a problem in generalising.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#192

Post by [deleted] »

johbjo wrote: post #182
beisner wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an education problem. It's an ideology problem. A huge fraction of the country has basically lost all faith in public and academic institutions. In these polarized times, when many leaders that institution-skeptics listen to decided to make COVID a political issue in the ongoing culture war, listening to public health recommendations (including masking, vaccination) is akin to "letting the other side win". E…

> lost all faith in public and academic institutions The people wearing masks outside, what are they afraid of and where are they placing their faith?

[deleted]

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#193

Post by RhysU »

passwordreset wrote: post #91
neither_color wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is this an education problem? Is there not a consistent minimum science curriculum for K-12 which covers pathogens, treatments and the history of vaccination programmes? Are there other factors that are relevant? It's not an education problem and while most comments I predict will consider that the main factor, I disagree and consider it a condescending take. We all learn about Louis Pasteur and successful eradicati…

> This turned a health debate into a struggle for rights: "We're all in this together" vs "99% let me take my chances". If that really is the case, then it IS an education problem, except they failed their civics class. Civics is a balance of civil rights and civic responsibilities, specifically, the responsibility that you have to your fellow countrymen. Not killing your fellow countrymen falls high on that list of…

What fraction of your properly educated, civically minded individuals drive over the speed limit on public roads?

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#194

Post by paperwasp42 »

thu2111 wrote: post #103
paperwasp42 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree a general lack of understanding of the scientific method is a large part of the issue. I think an additional issue is how some politicians/political individuals treat science--"Scientists say X, therefore X is now gospel, and anyone who even questions X is morally at fault and an uneducated idiot." Those sorts of inflammatory, controversial statements get amplified far more loudly than the actual statements o…

It'd be really nice if that were the case. Unfortunately, at least in many countries, it's been scientists/academics attacking anyone who questioned the reliability of scientific output. For sure, politicians deserve their fair share of the blame, but they're by and large not the ones attacking people who say "you have limited data and it does not seem to support your conclusions". Nor are they the source of all the…

You make some good points, and it raises a question I've been wondering about. My scientist friends--those who are working in labs and doing actual research--have all been really hesitant to make any hard claims about COVID since the very beginning. Pretty much every conversation I have with them is, "We don't know, we think X, but it's way to early to be certain."

On the flip side, as you've pointed out, some of the scientists advising policy seem to have... not that attitude. They present theories as hard facts, and then confuse the public when those "hard facts" turn out to be only partially true or even false.

My question is why there's an apparent disconnect between the on-the-ground scientists in their labs, and the policy-advising scientists. Is it because the policy-advising scientists worry they'll lose their jobs if they don't sound certain? Is it because they worry the public won't listen if they don't sound like they 100% know what they're doing? Is it purely political motives? A mix of all three?

I have no idea, and I don't know nearly enough about the biology field to even begin to guess. But I wish someone who's more well-versed on the topic would write an article about this.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#195

Post by jgwil2 »

auiya wrote: post #174
jgwil2 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP was asking if it's an education problem as in, do people just not understand what a vaccine is or how it works? But that's not the issue really. The information is out there; people are just choosing to ignore it or cling to "alternative facts" for some as yet poorly understood reason.

Because critical thinking skills are severely lacking due to - you guessed it, poor education.

I think it's more complicated than that.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#196

Post by allarm »

arcticbull wrote: post #64
thu2111 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was "institution skeptics" who made COVID a political issue. How many months did it take before academics were claiming that anti-lockdown protests were dangerous and must not happen but BLM protests were to be encouraged, because "systemic racism" is a public health issue? Not many. How many other academics condemned this blatant politicization of science? Not enough. Lockdowns don't work: US states…

Lockdown worked fine in New Zealand it not? The thing is, it’s something you have to commit to. You can’t just half ass it.

Lockdown worked amazingly in Singapore as well.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#197

Post by stmfreak »

lol768 wrote: post #2

> Polls show that about 30 percent of the U.S. population is still reluctant to be vaccinated. That number is expected to improve but probably not enough. “It is theoretically possible that we could get to about 90 percent vaccination coverage, but not super likely, I would say,” said Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. This is really poor, positive vaccine sentiment in…

Ah yes, vaccine reluctance must only come from ignorance. Certainly not education or research into the side effects of vaccines and how these in particular affect people of younger ages with more risks than getting covid.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#198

Post by ryandrake »

auiya wrote: post #125
beisner wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an education problem. It's an ideology problem. A huge fraction of the country has basically lost all faith in public and academic institutions. In these polarized times, when many leaders that institution-skeptics listen to decided to make COVID a political issue in the ongoing culture war, listening to public health recommendations (including masking, vaccination) is akin to "letting the other side win". E…

> It's not an education problem. It's an ideology problem. Ideology is formed via education

I’d argue that ideology is what fills in the voids that education hasn’t already reached. It’s like some kind of spray-foam that takes up whatever space that hasn’t yet been filled with educated thought.

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#199

Post by ryandrake »

thu2111 wrote: post #50
beisner wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not an education problem. It's an ideology problem. A huge fraction of the country has basically lost all faith in public and academic institutions. In these polarized times, when many leaders that institution-skeptics listen to decided to make COVID a political issue in the ongoing culture war, listening to public health recommendations (including masking, vaccination) is akin to "letting the other side win". E…

I don't think it was "institution skeptics" who made COVID a political issue. How many months did it take before academics were claiming that anti-lockdown protests were dangerous and must not happen but BLM protests were to be encouraged, because "systemic racism" is a public health issue? Not many. How many other academics condemned this blatant politicization of science? Not enough. Lockdowns don't work: US states…

No US state even came close to “locking down.” You had these ineffective stay-at-home orders, ignored mask mandates, unenforced travel restrictions, and unevenly enforced business closures. It was almost entirely voluntary, and therefore widely ignored.

Throughout the entire year, if I wanted to, I could easily drive out of my county, sit down at an indoor restaurant, and party indoors without a mask, and there would be absolutely zero police action to stop me. What kind of lockdown is that?

Re: Reaching ‘Herd Immunity’ from Covid Is Unlikely in the U.S., Experts Now Believe

#200

Post by ryandrake »

josephcsible wrote: post #188
Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that anybody who thinks "Why bother getting the vaccine if I'll still have to stay locked down/masked/etc" probably would be avoiding the vaccine anyways, and this is just a convenient excuse.

Why do you think that? It's a risk-reward balance. Why wouldn't increasing the reward tip the scales?

At this point, we know there is close to zero risk to getting vaccinated. How much reward do we need to convince people to do it?
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