Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

regulations.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

371–380 of 542 posts

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#371

Post by dec0dedab0de »

zepto wrote: post #333
dec0dedab0de wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's something that makes more sense as a website, then yes. I would go so far as to say any app that doesn't work offline is likely a dark pattern

How is this a dark pattern? It really just seems like a design disagreement. If we’re going to call any design we don’t like a ‘dark pattern’, then the term becomes meaningless. I mean to many people here commercial software is all a ‘dark pattern’ because they prefer FOSS. But this isn’t what ‘dark patterns’ means. Generally it’s about tricking people into agreeing to things based on false beliefs, or making things…

It's a dark pattern because the usual reason is to be able to gather more data from the user, and to limit user control. By that notion I would say any design decision that helps the company while harming the user is a dark pattern.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#372

Post by yesenadam »

bmuon wrote: post #285
tmpz22 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - they're circumventing the intent of the permissions restrictions implementation to the clear detriment of the user.

Highly debatable. In fact, trying to classify it as a dark pattern may derail the very valid discussion that the FTC is trying to have. There are significantly worse patterns out there. See [1]. What the push notification pattern is, is annoying. And it is specially annoying because of a prevalence of confirmation dialogs all over the Web with GDPR/CCPA, paid subscriptions, etc. But does it cause harm or monetary los…

> it is specially annoying...But does it cause harm or monetary loss

Why do you talk as if money is more important than time?

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#373

Post by gsmo »

Mixtape wrote: post #71
lima wrote: post #51

Slack has a fun dark pattern - they purposefully remove functionality from their web app to make you install their native app. The web app has a workspace switcher sidebar, but it only appears on ChromeOS, where you can't install the native client. https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/144258/slacks-we...

Reddit is just as guilty of this. If you want to see all the comments on a thread on their mobile site, you're pushed to install their official app and presumably create an account when doing so. As far as I can tell, the best workaround is to use the desktop site.

On mobile, reddit.com/.compact is an option. It's pretty stripped down but has some solid pros: it's fast, it has evenly sized (height) posts, the comments are easy to view. The post links with in-reddit photos/video do direct to the bad site, unfortunately. Another con (or pro) is infinite scrolling.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#374

Post by judge2020 »

swiley wrote: post #309
lima wrote: post #51

Slack has a fun dark pattern - they purposefully remove functionality from their web app to make you install their native app. The web app has a workspace switcher sidebar, but it only appears on ChromeOS, where you can't install the native client. https://webapps.stackexchange.com/questions/144258/slacks-we...

Discord does this as well. If they detect a mobile user agent they disable the button to hide the member list which makes group chats unusable. If you just change your user agent the button re-appears and you don't even need the app unless your browser doesn't handle voice and you need that.

For reference:

https://i.judge.sh/hot/Flare/chrome_eC7WqUYKPX.png

https://i.judge.sh/mealy/Sparkle/chrome_5RItK5j3Yl.png

Edit: Doing some digging, on the iOS user agent, the `toolbar` portion is null, while with the Chrome windows user agent it's set to include the entire element:

https://i.judge.sh/flickering/Twilight/chrome_q978GUiwQ8.png

https://i.judge.sh/pleasant/Coco/chrome_cNh0eBIHQL.png

This looks to be the function that determines it:

https://i.judge.sh/qualified/Velvet/chrome_CxUBug0q1P.png

So it's just a 'if mobile' check - maybe it breaks on some mobile screens (on a iphone 5/SE you end up being unable to view the channel name, not that it's an enjoyable experience anyways https://i.judge.sh/brave/Flare/chrome_nW26bTRXDe.png) or maybe it's a motive to get you to use the mobile app. This is just the desktop UI with some `if mobile` checks probably thrown in by a small number developers that want to support mobile browser support but aren't getting paid to do it.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#375

Post by Nextgrid »

busymom0 wrote: post #304
bogwog wrote: post #152

A common one is fake consent popups for system notifications. Websites need to ask for consent before sending system notifications via the Notifications API. If a user declines, that website is blocked from asking again (for obvious reasons) But many websites cheat this by showing a fake consent popup designed to mimic what the browser would show. If a user clicks "Decline" on the fake popup, the website won't show t…

App developers do this in their apps too when asking to rate the app in the App Store. They first show you a fake popup asking if you are enjoying the app OR want to send feedback. They will only show you the real iOS popup for reviewing the app if you tap "Yes" to the enjoying app.

Can’t believe this isn’t against App Store rules.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#376

Post by mleonhard »

ryandrake wrote: post #322
crmd wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fun to imagine the implications of dramatically raising the standard for commercial speech, such that statements which intend to mislead are prohibited.

I’d argue that a simple law “companies may not lie to people,” with wide latitude for judges to define lying, would instantly and massively upend business for the better.

It would upend US media companies and politics, to the benefit of the entire world.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#377

Post by snu »

Am I the only one who thinks its crazy it has taken them this long to do anything about this? This has been a real problem for well over 20 years.

Anyone else remember internet explorer toolbars? So many installers would include these, and avoiding installing them became progressively more difficult over time. They started with a simple checkbox that was enabled by default (bad enough if you ask me), then progressed to hiding the checkbox behind a button labeled 'Advanced Settings' or similar, then progressed to popping up another dialog that looked like another step in the install process, but required you to press 'cancel' to not install the toolbar and go back to the regular installer. There are probably many more worse examples, but this is all that springs to mind at the moment.

To an advanced user, these didn't seem like much - until you tried to use your grandma's computer and realized there were 10 toolbars installed...

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#378

Post by drexlspivey »

bogwog wrote: post #152

A common one is fake consent popups for system notifications. Websites need to ask for consent before sending system notifications via the Notifications API. If a user declines, that website is blocked from asking again (for obvious reasons) But many websites cheat this by showing a fake consent popup designed to mimic what the browser would show. If a user clicks "Decline" on the fake popup, the website won't show t…

A similar one is asking you to rate the app via the native modal (which does nothing) and if you rate with 5 stars they redirect you to the app store to vote there (where it counts). If you rate them with 1-3 stars they prompt you to leave feedback instead.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#379

Post by fpig »

egwor wrote: post #138
fpig wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This looks like a great service! Edit: crap, looks like it's US-only :/

Revolut supports one time cards... provided you're happy with Revolut.

Yep it does! Had no idea.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#380

Post by hda2 »

The "hold-your-offline-device-hostage-until-you-attempt-to-connect" pattern. It goes something like this:

When setting up a new unlinked kindle device, Amazon tries to trick you into connecting to the internet by showing a wifi setup screen that cannot be skipped. The only way to skip it is to supply the device with bad credentials and let it attempt to connect and fail. Only when it fails will it allow its owner to skip that step.

Microsoft has also started employing the same strategy in windows 10. Within the first year of setting up windows 10 locally, the user will be presented with a screen they can't dismiss until they link their local user account with an online microsoft account. Again, the workaround here is to let windows try to connect with bad credentials. Once it has failed to login, it will allow the user, a child who urgently needed to get to her online classes in my case, to skip this step.

Words can't describe the contempt I have for companies who engage in these patterns.

Post reply on HN