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Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

theguardian.com

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Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#151

Post by smolder »

saalweachter wrote: post #36
mensetmanusman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon 2.4 GHz is used to heat your food in the microwave. Pulses that increase the fluence by an order of magnitude or more could probably boil water for a microsecond inside the brain and cause some strange reactions. What is unproven though, is how one would ever shrink the size of an electronic weapon like this.

The Active Denial System, listed on your link, causes pain by heating water in the skin. What is the proposed system for getting microwaves past the skin into the brain without creating the same effect as the ADS?

Hopefully not bothering anyone with my wild speculation and incomplete physics knowledge here...

Could it be there is some way to target a location with multiple radio beams such that the damaging effect occurs at the point of interference? Maybe just constructive interference from multiple weaker beams? Something like this would need to be aimed precisely of course.

I was further led to thinking about the way you can generate sound at a distance from beams of ultrasound. [0] Either the fluid within the beam or an object struck by the beam acts as a demodulator. I don't really know if something like this could apply with radio.

The other thing that I thought of was the way microwave ovens excite water molecules specifically. Maybe there is some other wavelength or combination of them which excites other specific molecules or structures present in the brain?

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#152

Post by ogurechny »

enkid wrote: post #12
ALittleLight wrote: post #6

Absurd that groups as well resourced as the intelligence agencies aren't taking care of their people who've seemingly been injured in enemy attacks. Also, I don't understand the point of using this weapon. It seems like it causes debilitating issues, sometimes years later, but it's intermittently used on relatively low level personnel? What's the point? Make Americans afraid to work in Russia and Cuba? I also wonder…

It's possible it's a side effect of something else. Maybe they are using directed microwaves to power eavesdropping equipment, and the individuals in proximity to that equipment are getting sick.

Probably the most obvious explanation. I suppose that both attacking a diplomatic staff with a knife and just intentionally serving them contaminated food that puts them on the toilet for a couple of days would lead to some response. If something that can be easily identified with technical means produces no diplomatic response, then, despite the consequences, it's not considered an attack. Seems to be part of the job description. Most likely, they couldn't even ask politely, behind the curtains, to stop that because the answer would be “Sure, if you stop doing the same, too”. And none of that can be discussed openly because of the secrecy of spying technologies, so they have to invent stories about non-lethal weapons when the case could probably be described as “Major Ivanov, increase the power until we get a clear signal”.

When you start paying attention to these stories, it becomes clear that these secrets are kept first and foremost from the general public of the native countries, mostly for both public image and non-accountability privilege. It makes no sense to deny something that has been known to secret services of every developed country otherwise. It's quite ironic that before Snowden, military insurgents trained by this or that superpower, and mafia bosses who hired ex-special-agents had a more clear picture on, say, phone surveillance than law-abiding citizens.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#153

Post by akiselev »

smolder wrote: post #151
saalweachter wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Active Denial System, listed on your link, causes pain by heating water in the skin. What is the proposed system for getting microwaves past the skin into the brain without creating the same effect as the ADS?

Hopefully not bothering anyone with my wild speculation and incomplete physics knowledge here... Could it be there is some way to target a location with multiple radio beams such that the damaging effect occurs at the point of interference? Maybe just constructive interference from multiple weaker beams? Something like this would need to be aimed precisely of course. I was further led to thinking about the way you ca…

> Could it be there is some way to target a location with multiple radio beams such that the damaging effect occurs at the point of interference? Maybe just constructive interference from multiple weaker beams? Something like this would need to be aimed precisely of course.

Yes, a phased array [1], which is likely what the GGP was referring to by "What is unproven though, is how one would ever shrink the size of an electronic weapon like this."

Advanced radars work by creating a concentrated beam of RF with constructive interference and scanning it across the sky, but the installations are huge. A smaller directed microwave weapon would be meters across, hard to hide, and noisy.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phased_array

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#154

Post by staticassertion »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #119
nabla9 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you noticed how microwave cooking is not warming up the skin any faster than the insides? The wavelength is selected so that it penetrates and warms water molecules. It would cook your insides according to their water content. Surface of the skin has less water than tissue inside, so you would feel pain beneath the skin.

> Have you noticed how microwave cooking is not warming up the skin any faster than the insides? No. Microwave hot pockets are famous for coming out boiling on the outside, cold on the inside (if you don't let it sit for a couple minutes to equalize).

Basing an argument on hot pockets feels weak.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#155

Post by XorNot »

bqmjjx0kac wrote: post #108
mensetmanusman wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon 2.4 GHz is used to heat your food in the microwave. Pulses that increase the fluence by an order of magnitude or more could probably boil water for a microsecond inside the brain and cause some strange reactions. What is unproven though, is how one would ever shrink the size of an electronic weapon like this.

I imagine a direct beam would cause visible burns, but something that never occurred to me is using beamforming to zap inside someone's head. Yikes. Disclaimer: I'm not a physicist.

Basic problem: How do you target this?

Advanced problem: how do you avoid accidentally killing someone while targeting this?

You're just talking about shooting "at" someone's head, you're talking about positioning their head in 3D space and shooting so precisely (through potentially layers of brick, metal brick ties, lath etc.) that you hit only inside their head and don't leave any marks or burns on the skin.

We don't have the technology to reliably do this today at range.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#156

Post by whereis »

l332mn wrote: post #147
whereis wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presumes a conspiracy amongst officers forced into early retirement to create a convincing false narrative. What reason would the USIC have for lying about this? It seems unlikely that we would ever retaliate in kind, especially not after bringing attention to these incidents.

> What reason would the USIC have for lying about this? There's an entire industry revolving around blaming geopolitical enemies of wrongdoing without evidence, where the intelligence community plays a key part. This is done in order to control the narrative, steer the public perception and to keep a semblance of adherence to international law, in order to justify unilateral political, economic or military hostility.…

again, what specifically would the US be trying to justify with such a false narrative around rew's? Not seeing the cost/benefit.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#157

Post by whereis »

macinjosh wrote: post #143
whereis wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This presumes a conspiracy amongst officers forced into early retirement to create a convincing false narrative. What reason would the USIC have for lying about this? It seems unlikely that we would ever retaliate in kind, especially not after bringing attention to these incidents.

Throwing off other intelligence agencies. These people never deal in the truth that’s the whole game.

It's categorically false to say intel agencies (or the slight "these people") never deal in truth. That is not how misinfo/disinfo works. Additionally, intel agencies play an integral role in providing truthful and accurate products, for govt and industry partners.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#158

Post by ianhawes »

enkid wrote: post #14
cheaprentalyeti wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, the administration Biden belonged to more or less ignored worse stuff than this that enabled attacks like this. Take, for example, the OPM "hack." Read this: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/06/encry... IF you're wondering how whoever was running attacks like this would get the data to follow people home with attacks like this, in places where there aren't any sensors, look at these hearings fr…

I agree that more should have been done, but the director of the OPM did resign, which is basically being fired in that kind of position. https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/07/10/421783403...

OPM Director is a political position with a defined end date. They serve for 1-4 years.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#159

Post by amai »

"The microwave auditory effect, also known as the microwave hearing effect or the Frey effect, consists of the human perception of audible clicks, or even speech, induced by pulsed or modulated radio frequencies. The communications are generated directly inside the human head without the need of any receiving electronic device."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_auditory_effect

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