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Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

theguardian.com

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Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#141

Post by andi999 »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #29
bArray wrote: post #28

Are microwave attacks something that is proven to exist? Can we replicate the effects on mice from some distance? Given the fact they pass through walls, this kind of bounds the frequency range the attacks could exist in... I would expect to see radio interference on nearby devices, etc (even if operating on a different frequency). I wouldn't be entirely surprised if these could be self-manifesting symptoms from peop…

Yes, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon 2.4 GHz is used to heat your food in the microwave. Pulses that increase the fluence by an order of magnitude or more could probably boil water for a microsecond inside the brain and cause some strange reactions. What is unproven though, is how one would ever shrink the size of an electronic weapon like this.

If liquid in your brain boils, wouldn't you also just turn blind (since the eyeball gets damaged by heat)

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#142

Post by JarlUlvi »

kragen wrote: post #111
ben_w wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MythBusters tested that, the outsides (of food) heat up first.

The fact that reverse thermal gradients are often present in microwave thermal processing of materials is quite well known and can be replicated in food in your home microwave, precisely as nabla9 said, regardless of Mythbusters being able to produce a forward thermal gradient. Microwaves attenuate as they penetrate a resistive or high-permittivity substance, because they deposit some of their energy as they pass thr…

When the US military sets up an AN/TPQ-36 Firefinder radar, or similar variants, it is typical for these to have taped off (like police tape) sections where the energy is dangerous to humans. These devices, although mounted on trailers typically, are fairly old, and not designed for a point location, but rather distance.

I was told that being overly close to these devices in operation will lead to brain injuries

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#143

Post by macinjosh »

whereis wrote: post #126
tsimionescu wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its never reasonable to agree with the opaque conclusions of spy agencies in any country, especially when the conclusion points the finger at a hostile pwoer. There is literally no reason to believe public communications from a spy agency against their enemies (note: that does not mean that they can't be true, it just means that the truth of them is never the reason why the communication is put out).

This presumes a conspiracy amongst officers forced into early retirement to create a convincing false narrative. What reason would the USIC have for lying about this? It seems unlikely that we would ever retaliate in kind, especially not after bringing attention to these incidents.

Throwing off other intelligence agencies. These people never deal in the truth that’s the whole game.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#144

Post by totalZero »

tediousdemise wrote: post #102
totalZero wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you understand the patchwork quilt of Latin American relations, then it is immediately obvious how those other countries are related to Cuba. Imagine discussing Cuban "transgressions" (under the present regime, no less) without considering the Soviet role in the Cuban Missile Crisis, for example.

That’s understandable, but the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Why is the US still vehemently opposed to Cuba, or improving its relationship with Cuba? Even North Korea has better standing with the US than Cuba, but it makes little sense.

If you look at the prior conversation, you'll see that it isn't centered on the question you are posing here.

There was a statement that Cuba's only "transgression" was a desire to not be a US puppet state. That is a false claim.

Ignoring the language of "vehement" this and "opposed" that, I believe that my prior comment addressed your question. The present regime in Cuba is a direct descendent of the 26th of July Movement that orchestrated the Cuban Revolution in the 1950s. Cuba continues to be governed by the same faction and ideology that governed the island for four decades of the USSR's existence.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#145

Post by candiodari »

cardanome wrote: post #25
candiodari wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the problem with this sort of attitudes is that governments constantly lie. In a number of cases this is explainable. For instance, one way we do nuclear weapon containment is by lying about certain properties of Uranium (and of course mostly lie about lying, and of course, most researchers don't think it's particularly effective. While you need uranium to find the correct values, uranium + an old tv can tell you…

> But the problem with this sort of attitudes is that governments constantly lie. Governments do lie and there have been many real conspiracies. I don't exactly see how that is a problem with what I wrote. Sure sometimes you have to more research than just look up snopes but the real conspiracies mostly have some realistic motivations and reasons behind them to explain them. Critical thinking can get you far. > While…

> Governments do lie and there have been many real conspiracies. I don't exactly see how that is a problem with what I wrote.

Your central thesis is an appeal to authority ... and the authority you pick is one that never really tells the truth, has interests at stake here, and has historically lied with rather large consequences. Nor have they ever even apologised or even admitted wrongdoing. What I'm saying is: pick another authority.

> Exactly, applying the scientific method to find out the truth works.

That seems like an excellent proposal for another authority to go to. A well-cited academic that would at least lose credibility if they lied, for example.

> Any measures fighting a pandemic are by nature authoritarian. That can not be helped and doesn't invalidate the measures.

The measures are authoritarian wild guesses. With, of course, a healthy dose of denying there was anything wrong with past measures and complete refusal to help with the massive damage they are causing or accepting anything remotely resembling responsibility. And half the measures are pandering to special interest groups of course.

None of it justifies feeding people wrong information. And let's not joke here. The government is feeding information, and hiding other information, just like all the other groups are. For instance, they are massively downplaying that the big source of infections was hospitals. We all know why: they're afraid of being called to account for ancient ventilation systems in particularly infectious hospitals. They're afraid of the current systems (of having all publicly insured patients share rooms, EVEN when caring for infectious patients) might be in need of redesign. And the second source of infections is restaurants. That is being downplayed everywhere they reopen them.

And of course, they're especially afraid of the knowledge that we don't know all that much about how it spreads coming out. That it will become public knowledge that most measures are just wild guesses. I understand that, it won't make negotiation about measures easier. It's still wrong.

Here is some real info: https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/transmissi...

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#146

Post by totalZero »

n9 wrote: post #123
tediousdemise wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s understandable, but the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. Why is the US still vehemently opposed to Cuba, or improving its relationship with Cuba? Even North Korea has better standing with the US than Cuba, but it makes little sense.

Respectfully, this question sounds like it is coming from a context of the US being a nation that deals with other regimes fairly and in good faith. This is not at all the case, most especially in the Caribbean and Central America. The crimes of the US are unfathomably legion in these areas and well understood by pretty much everyone, except Americans. Millions of lives lost, dozens of democratically elected regimes…

US investment is the single greatest causal factor for prosperity in Latin America. Look at Panama and Chile, for example. In fact, the midas touch of American investment is visible in several other places outside of the Americas, including Taiwan and South Korea.

In my view, it is hard to label the immense prosperity-inducing capacity of United States foreign investment as bad-faith or unfair dealing. Cuba's government has spent years working on projects to attract spend-happy American tourists. Elsewhere in the region, entire countries base their economies around remittances from the USA. The US government could crack down on remittances and illegal immigration far more than already happens, but it does not, and millions of people in the region benefit as a result.

Respectfully, it takes a great deal of time, study, and travel to learn the dynamics involved in a region before you can say with confidence that Influence A is good and Influence B is bad. People who lean left in the US should understand that 'socialist' isn't a catch-all phrase; it means something different when you're voting for Bernie Sanders in the Iowa Caucuses than it does when you're bartering with your uncle for soap in Camaguey. I have been all over Latin America and I personally still don't consider myself to know all there is to know about the region. What I do know is that the "USA bad" narrative tends rarely to be accompanied with a discussion of the counterfactual universe where American influence is hypothetically absent from the region.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#147

Post by l332mn »

whereis wrote: post #126
tsimionescu wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its never reasonable to agree with the opaque conclusions of spy agencies in any country, especially when the conclusion points the finger at a hostile pwoer. There is literally no reason to believe public communications from a spy agency against their enemies (note: that does not mean that they can't be true, it just means that the truth of them is never the reason why the communication is put out).

This presumes a conspiracy amongst officers forced into early retirement to create a convincing false narrative. What reason would the USIC have for lying about this? It seems unlikely that we would ever retaliate in kind, especially not after bringing attention to these incidents.

> What reason would the USIC have for lying about this?

There's an entire industry revolving around blaming geopolitical enemies of wrongdoing without evidence, where the intelligence community plays a key part. This is done in order to control the narrative, steer the public perception and to keep a semblance of adherence to international law, in order to justify unilateral political, economic or military hostility. The reality is always more nuanced, and it's definitely a safe bet to not believe whatever empty accusations they come out with.

Controlling the narrative like they do, the cumulative effect of it is that they are able to convince the public of quite crazy assertions, which would be rightly treated as conspiracy theories had they come from some other source. These crazy assertions of course requires equally crazy political reactions. E.g. people genuinely believe that most US geopolitical enemies are literally rogue, bandit states, requiring draconic policing by the US. It's a children's view of the world, leading people to look the other way when it harms innocents.

The intelligence community has a looong history of doing this. It's a central part of the playbook which is readily admitted in more casual contexts.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#148

Post by giantrobot »

sudosysgen wrote: post #139
giantrobot wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the frequency radio waves can have extremely narrow beams. If an antenna is not literally in the path of the beam it can't detect it. Microwaves happen to be readily formed into tight beams. If an embassy had a monitoring system a microwave brain cooker beam might have just looked like a splash of static if it was detected at all. Multiple beams would likely be used so only their focal point (someone's h…

You can have two of the following three. Small size (less than thirty meters), low scatter, and power. If you're going to have a powerful microwave brain frying system radiating over a 50m^2 area there is no way you're not going to light up the neighborhood in EM. Just can't happen, sorry.

I don't know why you think a brain frying system needs to operate over a 50m^2 area or why you think it needs to be small. Buildings with windows exist as do building across from those windowed buildings.

Maybe some day someone will invent phased array antennas and you'll be able to direct narrow beam emissions without having to physically move the antenna. I can dream I guess.

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#149

Post by totalZero »

n9 wrote: post #122
totalZero wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba isn't exactly Switzerland. It has a long history of being a Soviet puppet state during the 20th century, and a nucleation site for anti-US activities elsewhere in Latin America. Furthermore, there would be no Maduro regime without the influence of Cuba, and that regime is expressly pro-Russia and destructive to Venezuela. Let's not distill away the complexity of the situation.

If you're going to use that kind of argument, re: global/network effects of a government as complicit in negative outcomes of actions in other countries... the USA is by far the worst offender. It could be argued that the questiobnable actions Cuba has taken are justified in the context of trying to deal with an insidious and pervasive foreign influence over most of the globe: the US. My question is what he USSR and…

I don't think that's a good-faith characterization of my prior comment. Please read carefully. I'm not suggesting network effects. I'm talking about direct activity. There is boundless information about this available online, but this is a start regarding the Venezuela link:

https://georgetownsecuritystudiesreview.org/2019/10/18/boliv...

Separately, you can also read about the Cuban antecedents to Che's fatal incursion into Bolivia, and his team's lack of regard for the linguistic differences across regions in that country. There are seven decades worth of Cuban involvement in anti-American activity all over Latin America. I invite you to read about it from time to time when you are bored and curious.

Whether you support one side, the other, or neither, it's obvious that Cuba's "transgressions" are not a single-element list. That's what the parent comment says and it's 100% false.

I find it unreasonable that you suggest the USSR's massive stockpiling of weapons was not due to their own actions and strategy, but somehow the US's fault. How can you be circumspect when you suggest that two can tango but only one does the dancing?

Re: Havana syndrome: NSA officer’s case hints at microwave attacks since 90s

#150

Post by fouric »

shawnz wrote: post #109
bmicraft wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using longer wavelengths should do exactly that.

How would that achieve what the other poster is saying, which is to heat the insides more than the surface? Wouldn't that just heat both the insides and the surface more evenly?

Even if this was the case - the insides and surface of the human body have rather different characteristics, with the inside being more sensitive to, well, just about everything than the surface.
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