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Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

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Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#111

Post by ModernMech »

I don't know if this counts as a dark pattern but it really ticked me off when this happened: when YouTube on iPad changed to require a paid subscription to play content while the screen is turned off. What kind of fresh hell is that? I have to pay to use a hardware feature? What's the next move, requiring me to purchase a subscription to adjust the volume or the screen brightness?

Actually this reminds me of another annoyance: playing ads at a higher volume than the content. I tend to listen to content very softly to prevent hearing loss, and whenever an ad comes on I find myself turning the volume down, only to turn it up again when the content comes back.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#112

Post by salawat »

cj wrote: post #4
salawat wrote: post #3

Yessssss! It's about damn time. Time to sit down, do some research, and write up some papers!

I’m assuming this is sarcasm? What do you propose be done instead of doing research and writing papers?

Nope. Not sarcasm. I'm going through each of the kiddo's tablets and cataloging every dark pattern, in every game. Then I'm writing up the details of our nightmare with PayPal, the couple of financial institutions I've had nightmares getting things closed out from, and possibly even chucking in a few examples of contact template language that I think qualify like "To opt out, send a hand-signed letter to yada-yada...".

I'm so tired of malicious compliance, hidden or disguised unsubscribe links, and complete disregard for the burden imposed on consumers.

Gacha games, loot boxes, that type of thing. Basically everything listed here.

https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=3400901

but also

https://www.darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern

or monitored here:

https://www.darkpattern.games/

I've come to realize these types of "Dark Patterns" exist in way more than just UI's. Businesses often find ways of leveraging the fruits of them for alternate revenue streams.

I'm sure there are academics out there who'll nail down the white paper aspect, butI tend to try to supply a boots on the ground eye-view since I spend a lot of time trying to teach people what to look out for, and why it's a problem.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#113

Post by tobmlt »

consp wrote: post #56
dmix wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 10yrs ago NBA did this to me. They made it impossible to cancel a $99/m sub. Their instructions were login and go to the cancel button but the cancel button was broken and said call this number. But no one ever picked up the number. I will never buy a NBA branded thing after that obvious bullshit scam.

I do not know how it is in the US, but where I live those automatic subscriptions are cancelable (and usually refundable) by the user via the bank or credit card company if the company collecting it is not responding. This is very easy in the first 56 days and a bit harder afterwards. They can retry to collect but you can keep doing it. The idea is you send them a official letter telling them you revoke your authoriz…

Thanks for pointing this out!

I wonder if someone can start a service to facilitate this for people. So many dark patterns, so many opportunities to ease the transaction costs/friction of disentangling? ;)

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#114

Post by deepzn »

fpig wrote: post #17

The worst one is probably trying to make it hard for users to stop paying for a service, like cancelling a subscription. That shit should be punishable by literal prison time.

po*nhub is almost criminal at this to be honest smh

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#115

Post by pta2002 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #55
iankp wrote: post #15

TrustArc is a company used by major brands that utilizes dark patterns to FAKE opt-out time for GDRP compliance. Major companies employ lies. It will hold your browser captive for 2 minutes in hopes that you cancel or accept all. If you don't, it shows "We are processing the requested change to your cookie preferences. This may take up to a few minutes to process.". Not even incompetence could make this an honest pro…

Well, given that some sites employ hundreds of trackers and other barely-above-malware stuff, it does make sense for these requests to take ages. Unfortunately, many people simply click on the "accept all" button and don't care about their privacy that much. The idea of GDPR was that consumers would be hesitant upon seeing the massive amount of third parties that use your data and demand change from the providers, tu…

But what requests would it even make? If you opt out you're effectively telling it to _not_ make any requests.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#116

Post by judge2020 »

consp wrote: post #56
dmix wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 10yrs ago NBA did this to me. They made it impossible to cancel a $99/m sub. Their instructions were login and go to the cancel button but the cancel button was broken and said call this number. But no one ever picked up the number. I will never buy a NBA branded thing after that obvious bullshit scam.

I do not know how it is in the US, but where I live those automatic subscriptions are cancelable (and usually refundable) by the user via the bank or credit card company if the company collecting it is not responding. This is very easy in the first 56 days and a bit harder afterwards. They can retry to collect but you can keep doing it. The idea is you send them a official letter telling them you revoke your authoriz…

It's the same in the U.S. If you do this, the failed charges might be sent to collections agencies, but that doesn't usually matter much to lenders if it's a small subscription - although this $100/mo NBA charge might cause some issues.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#117

Post by Phlarp »

consp wrote: post #56
dmix wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 10yrs ago NBA did this to me. They made it impossible to cancel a $99/m sub. Their instructions were login and go to the cancel button but the cancel button was broken and said call this number. But no one ever picked up the number. I will never buy a NBA branded thing after that obvious bullshit scam.

I do not know how it is in the US, but where I live those automatic subscriptions are cancelable (and usually refundable) by the user via the bank or credit card company if the company collecting it is not responding. This is very easy in the first 56 days and a bit harder afterwards. They can retry to collect but you can keep doing it. The idea is you send them a official letter telling them you revoke your authoriz…

American debit cards generally don't have these protections, but American credit cards absolutely do have robust consumer protection mechanisms.

It's also a pretty big negative mark for merchants that get charge-backs issued against them, if just a small percentage of people used charge backs to cancel these "subscriptions" it would make their processing fees skyrocket or even get them dropped by the major processors

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#118

Post by dylan604 »

zemo wrote: post #99
dylan604 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Etsy does a "Only 4 items left, but 7 people have it in their cart" or something similarly worded

Etsy users put things in their cart to bookmark them. I haven't been there for six years now, but one of the problems I worked on at Etsy was getting people to stop using their cart as a bookmarking tool. While I was there I worked on the functionality to fave an item as well as the functionality to add items to a List of favorites. There was another tool called Treasuries for this purpose that we phased out, so ther…

Intention doesn't need to be a part of defining a dark pattern. It is a dark pattern whether it was intended as such or not. However, intention could definitely be taken into account during sentencing/punishment decisions.

Re: Request for comments regarding topics to be discussed at Dark Patterns workshop

#119

Post by ryandrake »

tobiasSoftware wrote: post #64

The dark pattern I've been seeing a lot lately is billing services trying to make you go paperless. I've seen all sorts of dark patterns around it, from subtle things such as it being the second of three options where you need to check options 1 and 3 every month, to it literally being checked by default and buried in the middle of a "we are just checking up on you to make sure you have all your options set correctly…

Yup, I've been fooled into going paperless on my utility bills a number of times. No idea how I did it, AND they often get "confused" when you want to restore paper service. I've had to call PG&E a number of times recently and they still are failing to send paper bills.
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