Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

youtube.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

351–360 of 503 posts

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#351

Post by ratww »

robbrown451 wrote: post #320
blacklight wrote: post #262

I've already stated this many times, I'll state it again. Get your shit out of YouTube and any other Google product. Google is a dumb, faceless, fully automated company only interested in extracting as much data as possible from its users, force them to swallow as many ads as possible, all without caring about listening to them (both consumers and creators), under the faulty assumption that they're too big for users…

And put your content where? What should this piano teacher do? This is partially the fault of YouTube/Google, but also copyright law in general. It's broken. This community, right here, could collaborate and force changes upon the powers that be. Boycotting Google and YouTube isn't going to do it though.

Google's extension to copyright and lack of accountability is the only thing broken here. That, and the fact that they have multiple monopolies.

Boycotting Google is the only way to go. One can also advocate for regulation in this are.

As for your question: They can put the video in Nebula or Patreon, for instance. Maybe there can be more of those, perhaps for music teachers. Maybe that's also an opportunity for someone new to jump into the streaming game and provide some competition.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#352

Post by anigbrowl »

gwd wrote: post #246
GordonS wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO the biggest issue with all this is the lack of a suitable appeals process, handled by humans. Would such a process be expensive? Yes, but you can't have it both ways, enabling copyright holders to lodge spurious claims at will, and not allow content creators - who the entire platform is built on! - to disclaim them. Would such a process be expensive? Yes, of course - but YouTube can very well afford it.

I think what should happen is this: Step 1: Someone files a copyright claim (or perhaps this is done automatically). This is free. Step 2: Someone disputes the claim. This is also free, and automatically restores the video. Step 3: The filer can re-submit the claim but they have to post a bond for the price of a professional manual review by a trained copyright lawyer; maybe $1000. Step 4: If the video owner can re-d…

That's sort of OK for an operating business, but many creators don't have $1000 sitting around for every video they upload.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#353

Post by simion314 »

blacklight wrote: post #262

I've already stated this many times, I'll state it again. Get your shit out of YouTube and any other Google product. Google is a dumb, faceless, fully automated company only interested in extracting as much data as possible from its users, force them to swallow as many ads as possible, all without caring about listening to them (both consumers and creators), under the faulty assumption that they're too big for users…

I just want to emphasize that Google are not the only ones,

I had my Sony Play Station account banned for 2 months with no exact reason and no way to appeal, on short the Sony message was like "you did something wrong, something about our policy on sex and violence, our moderators are perfect so there is no mistake and there is nothing you can do".

I think we need something that addresses all such issues and not a Google only workaround, the solution is regulations.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#354

Post by Baeocystin »

havernator wrote: post #220
qwertox wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Feed a computer with MIDI files of public domain music and render it as audio 2) Upload to YouTube 3) File copyright dispute to YouTube for any (future?) uploaded video which contains the music which used to be in the public domain 4) Have Google reject the videos 5) Create a site or an app which allows you to license that public domain music for a fee. 6) Notify YouTube who has licensed this public domain music.…

http://spiderrobinson.com/melancholyelephants.html TL;DR copyright becomes absurd surprisingly fast when you have a large population, widely-available authoring/recording tools, and a way to store/search all of them, indefinitely. Like, indefensible absurd.

That was a good read. Thanks for sharing it.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#355

Post by zentiggr »

RogerL wrote: post #287
ergot_vacation wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd disagree slightly with the parent post here: the conclusion shouldn't be "get away from Google" so much as "If you have to use Google, understand what you're getting into." If you deal with unsavory people, things will go south eventually. If you deal with Google, sooner or later things like this will happen. Expect it, build it into your strategy, but don't be surprised by it.

How do you "build that into your strategy"? That is so easy to type, but unactionable. A piano teacher can't build her own streaming platform, and if she goes to a different platform she'll die in obscurity. Concretely, what should she have done differently?

It's that assumption of "dying in obscurity" that gives Google their damnable network effect.

If there isn't enough marketing advice out there about finding as many channels and methods as you can, I'll eat this comment with barbecue sauce.

Read up, utilize all the advice on everything except Google-owned properties, accept the lower visibility, and help neuter the algorithm beast.

Or accept that you're riding the tiger and never complain again.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#356

Post by zentiggr »

ratsmack wrote: post #289
ergot_vacation wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd disagree slightly with the parent post here: the conclusion shouldn't be "get away from Google" so much as "If you have to use Google, understand what you're getting into." If you deal with unsavory people, things will go south eventually. If you deal with Google, sooner or later things like this will happen. Expect it, build it into your strategy, but don't be surprised by it.

>Expect it, build it into your strategy, but don't be surprised by it. This is kind of like saying... Expect failure, build failure into you strategy, and move blindly forward believing there is no other alternative.

I'd say it's more like:

Go ahead and build your initial business on quicksand.

Know that you'll get lots of traffic, but it might sink into the ground at any time.

Use the profits to build up a solid future property that isn't built on quicksand.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#357

Post by jasode »

josteink wrote: post #339
robbrown451 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And put your content where? What should this piano teacher do? This is partially the fault of YouTube/Google, but also copyright law in general. It's broken. This community, right here, could collaborate and force changes upon the powers that be. Boycotting Google and YouTube isn't going to do it though.

> And put your content where? Vimeo? Peertube? Facebook? Self hosted website? Anywhere?

>Vimeo? Peertube? Facebook? Self hosted website? Anywhere?

Those proposed alternatives don't address why the content creators like this piano teacher put their tutorials on Youtube:

++ $0 in hosting and bandwidth costs: self-hosted costs money that's often unpredictable, and Vimeo has platform membership fees

++ ad revenue to help make the effort of producing a video worthwhile : Peertube does not have relationship with ad sponsors

++ audience size & reach : Vimeo/Peertube/selfhosted/etc don't have comparable viewers. For niche content such as piano instruction, this makes building a financially sustainable audience more difficult

++ discovery recommendations from the platform: Vimeo/Peertube/selfhosted don't have the network effect ecosystem of other videos on music that can lead viewers to the piano teacher's tutorial videos.

When frustrated Youtubers ask "And put your content where?", they're not looking for dumb hosting sites to upload some mp4 files. Their question is really a short version of: "And put your content where that has the audience reach and monetization to make the video production worthwhile?"

A content creator like this piano teacher wants to make some extra money with Youtube videos. It's not the end of the world if she can't do that but the extra income could help offset the cancellation of in-person lessons because of pandemic social distancing. I don't think lecturing people repeatedly about Vimeo and Peertube is helpful.

EDIT reply to: >But the other rely to this comment makes a very good point - post in as many places as possible/desired _in addition_ to YouTube, and point to all the other places in that YouTube posting.

You're still losing sight of this thread's topic: the piano teacher is losing ad monetization money to a fraudulent claim of copyright. If she hypothetically uploaded her Moonlight Sonata tutorial to Peertube/Vimeo/selfhosting, she still gets $0 in ad share revenue from those alternative video hosters which makes the advice irrelevant.

Your "syndication" advice to distribute the videos to multiple sites solves a different problem such as de-platforming. E.g. Youtube deletes/censors her video or her entire channel.

That's not the problem she has. Her video is still there and viewable. But she doesn't want the ad monetization money stolen from her by a fraudulent claim.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#358

Post by robbrown451 »

anigbrowl wrote: post #341
robbrown451 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And put your content where? What should this piano teacher do? This is partially the fault of YouTube/Google, but also copyright law in general. It's broken. This community, right here, could collaborate and force changes upon the powers that be. Boycotting Google and YouTube isn't going to do it though.

I hate copyright law and agree it's broken, but it's not at fault here. Compositions can be copyrighted, but obviously Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata is in the public domain and has been for a long time. Performances can be copyrighted, but obviously a performance isn't the same thing as a composition. There's no legal grey area here. This is completely on Google/Youtube. Why isn't there a way to assert the copyright s…

"This is completely on Google/Youtube. "

What about the copyright trolls that are filing claims for content they don't own, forcing Google into an arms race with them.

Even when the system is working "correctly" it is broken. If I take a video of my kid dancing to a song, I often can't share it with my family on YouTube. That's messed up.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#359

Post by CRConrad »

TheManInThePub wrote: post #32
anoncow wrote: post #12

Being able to access real people for support should be a mandatory requirement for big corporations offering services to the public directly.

> Being able to access real people for support should be a mandatory requirement. Being able to appeal an automated decision to a real person is a mandatory requirement under the GDPR. https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/refo...

Especially noteworthy here: > The data protection law establishes that you have the right not to be subject to a decision based solely on automated means, if the decision produces legal effects concerning you or significantly affects you in a similar way.

That seems to me (IANAL etc) like it could be used to argue that you need to be able to appeal to a real person who actually has the power to do something about the problem. Because these examples like in the GP(?) where one gets hold of a real person who claims they can't do anything because "that's just how the system works"... Well, then they're not really "a person" in the sense that I'm fairly sure has to be the one meant here; they're just another cog in the automated means.

Re: Piano teacher gets copyright claim for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata [video]

#360

Post by zentiggr »

cortesoft wrote: post #340
fsflover wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. But you can advertise something in your own videos as people often do nowadays.

That is a lot harder to do, and only the most successful content creators will be able to find sponsors on their own. In addition, that is a lot of extra work for a small content creator.

... or the small content creator gets a random permanent ban for "REASON WE CAN'T TELL YOU SO YOU CAN'T GAME US", and the easy road turns out to be a dead end.

And you wind up doing the extra work anyway.

Post reply on HN