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It's your device, you should be able to repair it

bbc.com

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Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#371

Post by notJim »

simion314 wrote: post #358
devoutsalsa wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big reason that stuff isn't replaceable anymore is because consumers wants some of the benefits that come w/ non-replaceable parts. For example, it's nice that I can drop my iPhone in water w/o worrying (too much) about destroying it. I spent ~$1500 on an iPhone 12 Pro in November & dropped it in a lake in December. Part of the reason it's (more) waterproof if because it's not covered w/ ports/hatches/openings that…

If Apple would publish schematic, diagnostic software and allow refurbishing and selling of parts to third party - it will keep your iPhone water proof still. The reality is this, when your device gets old or your screen cracks , Apple will offer to fix it for 70% of a new device price, so you are pushed to buy a new device. I hope this is not controversial and has nothing to do with the water proof preference you ha…

You can already buy some replacement parts, like screens and backs. It doesn't seem like you can replace the motherboard, so that would be a fair point. I wouldn't objecting to coding this into law, but I'm not sure why your comment is implying this is not currently possible.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#372

Post by ziml77 »

omgwtfbyobbq wrote: post #137
css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

It is goalpost moving, but I also agree with the author. If a device is no longer supported by a company, or that company goes under, there should be some mechanism to make any software needed to modify software on the device available. Take the essential ph-1 as an example. Now that the company is gone, if a device bricks during an update, that's it. Having the firehose file would make it possible to unblock it, but…

Man that would be amazing. I don't see that ever happening, but it would be great to not be stuck with hardware that is unusable or near unusable because the manufacturer abandoned it or went under. Though it would be important that all functionality be able to remain intact if they hand over the tools. In the most technical sense the hardware is still usable even if you have to write new firmware from scratch, but practically it's useless without having something to work from and enhance/bugfix.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#374

Post by operator-name »

varispeed wrote: post #25

I fear this is going to turn into some ambiguous law that only big companies will be able to navigate through and you and me still won't be able to repair anything, because it will be deemed "unsafe". There also has to be many years of commissions, banquets, meetings, dinners, bonuses before all civil servants feasting on tax payer money will come up with something.

I'm cautiously optimistic, I've been following Louis Rossmann's efforts and Massachusetts recently passed their right to repair bill (https://youtu.be/8XN98T0KLGI).

If other industries can do it why can't we?

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#375

Post by [deleted] »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #265
jolux wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the GP was talking about discrete circuitry vs integrated circuits, not so much supporting peripherals.

But their parent wasn't (in fact, they mentioned x86 and AMD, which are integrated circuits). Look at a random PC (or, until recently, a random laptop): it's made from a lot of individual components that can be swapped out or upgraded independently. Storage, RAM, CPU, GPU, cooling, motherboard, WiFi chip, Bluetooth chip, speakers, microphone, screen, all the peripherals - they're all designed to work together as a ca…

[deleted]

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#376

Post by abawany »

balozi wrote: post #26

A persistent question in my mind is why do customers buy unrepairable products, from smart phones and high-tech tractors. Why is the market failing? Or is it working perfectly?

Also, imo the platform walled gardens considerably hamper your ability to move away from a given vendor just because they made the current model less repairable. Plus, as other vendors see Apple's snowballing profit, they also adopt similar construction and thus you are left with pretty much no choice when you go out to buy a product. The only counterpoint I have in this regard is Microsoft Surface: their earlier models were terribly unrepairable but the newer ones seem to have considerably improved in this regard.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#377

Post by Spooky23 »

creaturemachine wrote: post #242
Spooky23 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful. My dad replaced a defective memory chip on his IBM PC XT.. but the computer cost the equivalent of $12k. I’d rather throw away a dozen modern laptops than fix one that costs 10x.

Your comparison does not work. Replaceable parts didn't make that IBM cost what it did.

I'm not talking about replacing a memory module. I'm talking about replacing a defective 4Kb memory chip on a $1000+, 384Kb ISA card.

When I built PCs in the late 90s, the BOM included motherboard, cpu, graphics card, sound card, nic, sometimes a parallel port board, memory, hard disk, etc. At this point, it was only really feasible to repair modules that failed, few humans with the skill to replace a component would do so due to the economies of scale and cheap price.

Now, it's motherboard, cpu, memory, disk. The cost is much less, but most repairs are replacements of the mainboard or disk.

For most laptops, there's a tiny motherboard with most of the functionality integrated into a few modules. The only things that get repaired are memory and battery.

For the M1 Macbook, you have one of the highest performance devices on the market selling for $899 at 40-50% margin. I just bought similar Dell and HP units in quantities over 50,000 last fall for $100-150 less (probably 6-8% margin to the OEM), with inferior battery life, disk and cpu.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#378

Post by shoto_io »

Sohcahtoa82 wrote: post #299
emkoemko wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

okay true, but you think its fine for Apple to prevent you from taking out say your broken camera and replace it with a working one? or a LCD... or any part? You think its fine for say John Deer to prevent you from repairing your own tractor? if any part is replaces with exactly the same part but your tractor won't turn on because the "encryption link" is not correct? would you be fine with your car preventing you fr…

You're not making a convincing argument when the person you're arguing with is coming from the "free market" angle. Someone arguing in favor of allowing market forces to solve the problem truly do think it's fine for Apple and John Deere to do those things. The solution for lack of repairability isn't to enact legislation to force them to make their products more repairable, it's to stop buying Apple and John Deere.…

Sorry, I’m not sure if I follow. Consumers are not rational, ok fair. But should we then listen to their demands to have things their way? Like devices, which can be repaired? Seems like a rational want? I don’t get it

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#379

Post by notJim »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #265
jolux wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the GP was talking about discrete circuitry vs integrated circuits, not so much supporting peripherals.

But their parent wasn't (in fact, they mentioned x86 and AMD, which are integrated circuits). Look at a random PC (or, until recently, a random laptop): it's made from a lot of individual components that can be swapped out or upgraded independently. Storage, RAM, CPU, GPU, cooling, motherboard, WiFi chip, Bluetooth chip, speakers, microphone, screen, all the peripherals - they're all designed to work together as a ca…

I find this type of rant rather unhelpful in this debate. It is not the case that there is no reason for soldered parts. This decision was not made out of spite or laziness. It was done because there was a belief that the product would be better. In particular, it seems that leaving sockets off enables you to make a thinner laptop, and that some of the products use a type of RAM that is not sold to be put into a socket [0]. I would guess that market research also showed that very very few consumers were replacing the Bluetooth chips in their Macbooks. I have a great PC next to me, but it also weighs 20-30 lbs, occupies a huge amount of space, and took me several days of work to make sure all the components would actually optimally work together.

I would find it a lot more compelling to talk about trade-offs than to just throw out uninformed ranting. We used to have laptops like what you're describing, and they no longer sell very well, or are no longer available because they are thicker and heavier than the models that replaced them.

0: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/2dyuxa/can_any_engin...

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#380

Post by google234123 »

hilbert42 wrote: post #333
duped wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because JIT manufacturing didn't exist. It's not coincidence that we make more devices that are more complex, and do it faster today than we did in the olden days and they are simultaneously more difficult to repair with tougher to source components in low volumes. Everything from the design process to the assembly and repair is completely different today than it was 50 years ago. At the same time, consumers stopped…

"Everything from the design process to the assembly and repair is completely different today than it was 50 years ago." 1. Yes, and that needs to change—and very soon at that. A short while ago I counted over one hundred x86 motherboards that were current and readily available from just one single manufacturer. I spent many hours trying to differentiate the minor—almost insignificant—differences between many of these…

> A short while ago I counted over one hundred x86 motherboards that were current and readily available from just one single manufacturer.... This nonsense is a deliberate marketing ploy and there ought to be definite penalties against it...

This is authoritarian nonsense.

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