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It's your device, you should be able to repair it

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Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#331
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? A rubber gasket and a few screws work just as well without compromising repairability. Wristwatches have been constructed like this for centuries, while being a lot smaller and lighter than any smartphone. Maybe it would slightly increase the BOM and assembly cost, but considering that it fits in the budget of a 30€ Casio,…

> Where does this crazy idea come from that you have to glue shut a device to make it waterproof? Glue helps with heat dissipation, physical shocks, vibration knocking plugs loose, provides electrical insulation, chemical resistance, and makes the components less able to vibrate over time and knock things loose, makes sensor positioning more stable, and even makes things easier to assemble since less individual faste…

You're saying "glue helps" but you seem to mean "glue is required". Those are not identical concepts. Yes glue may help, just like using bolts screws and gaskets may help. The entire point is that glue is not _required_ to achieve those goals.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you articulate what that has to do with repairability?

For one thing, I think it's an important point to make when someone else makes the, "look how repairability has regressed since the golden era of getting the Apple II schematics in the box with the computer!". At the time, design was cheap. Why not give it to your customers? It's not like they're going to go out and make one themselves. The fact that manufacturing is cheap now and schematics are not only the key to r…

I don't think this argument is related whether or not people should be able to source and repair the devices they own. R2R doesn't require redesign of products - only that parts and documentation should be made available so indie shops and DIYers can have the option.

This is as opposed to the status quo, where manufacturers like Apple and Samsung currently cause their phones to malfunction when replacing parts without proprietary software switches - even when those parts are OEM. [1]

[1] https://www.ifixit.com/News/45921/is-this-the-end-of-the-rep...

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#333
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you take away the ability of companies to negotiate reasonable deals with their venders, they'll just buy them out and vertically integrate." Why was that argument irrelevant in the past when the 'right to repair' was was accepted as completely normal† and manufacturers actually encourage it? (See my point to that effect above.) † That is, to the extent that back then no one would have understood what the phrase…

Because JIT manufacturing didn't exist. It's not coincidence that we make more devices that are more complex, and do it faster today than we did in the olden days and they are simultaneously more difficult to repair with tougher to source components in low volumes. Everything from the design process to the assembly and repair is completely different today than it was 50 years ago. At the same time, consumers stopped…

"Everything from the design process to the assembly and repair is completely different today than it was 50 years ago."

1. Yes, and that needs to change—and very soon at that. A short while ago I counted over one hundred x86 motherboards that were current and readily available from just one single manufacturer. I spent many hours trying to differentiate the minor—almost insignificant—differences between many of these boards (in fact, most of the differences were essentially trivial).

This nonsense is a deliberate marketing ploy and there ought to be definite penalties against it. It wastes considerable time and human effort that ought to put to better endeavors; confuses buyers as well as those who have to get the equipment working (let alone repair it); and it also screws up the development of software drivers—as no one is ever quite sure what all those minor changes are all about—and manufacturers haven't the time, wit or inclination to resolve such matters let alone spending time on providing upgrades for a PWA/board that has such a fleeting lifespan. No wonder the world is awash in e-junk! [That's just the beginning of that narrative but I'll spare you the rest.]

2. Then there are the thousands upon thousands of bugs that slip through software development and that are never fixed due mainly to the fact that the compilation process obfuscates them all and that there is no law or obligation to compel the developer to provide the source code that would reveal the underlying spaghetti code (this is the modern equivalent of a doctor burying his mistakes). ...Now, how many hundreds of examples would you like me to cite?

3. "At the same time, consumers stopped caring about repairs." That's true but fortunately they've now changed their minds—mostly because disingenuous manufactures have made either substandard equipment or equipment that has been deliberately designed to conform to the manufacturer's planned obsolescence strategy (I suggest you read my comments of several days ago on the Phoebus Light Bulb Cartel (BTW, it's still effectively alive and well)).

The sooner goods that cannot be easily repaired—or that are found to be deliberately designed to aid a manufacturer's planned obsolescence strategy—are taxed the sooner they'd fall into line. The classic example of this caper is the notorious—diabolical—example of smartphone batteries that are deliberately designed not to be changed. No wonder the Right to Repair movement has gathered apace and that new laws to regulate such wayward behaviour are now pending. Smartphone design would change overnight if every smartphone whose battery was not removable was levied with a hefty e-waste disposal tax! The same goes for smartphones whose manufactures deliberately disable the FM radio circuitry (a tax or levy on this can easily be justified from an emergency stance: if cell towers go down in floods, bushfires, earthquakes etc. and the FM radio works then phones would have at least some basic connection to the outside world). Right, that one's a no-brainer that everyone ought to understand!

4. With respect to your comment about JIT, it was alive and well when I was working in a manufacturing plant in Japan around the time that I was referring to.

Incidentally, I have worked in manufacturing and specifically in an electronics prototyping laboratory where much of my time was involved in liaising with production. I know the arguments you are putting very well, and whilst there is validity to some of them, many are just opportunistic and have been done more to benefit a manufacturer's coffers than to benefit users/consumers.

Thank goodness that's about to change.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird how you read me describing the decisions of the market and attribute them to my opinion/preferences.

Sorry. But if you had designed the English language better, not making "It" and "I" so similar, this wouldn't have happened.

I’m not sure he did design the English language.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#335
Despite being a big fan of right to repair, I really didn't like this article. It gave me the impression that the only way to fix things is to impose regulations on manufacturers in the form of design restrictions and support requirements. IMO, that's not at all what right to repair should be focusing on.

I disagree with any regulation which would force a manufacturer to compromise on the design of a device just for the sake of ease-of-repair or to provide parts or repair services. However, there are some practices which I do think should be illegal as part of right to repair law. Here are some examples:

1) Manufacturers should not be allowed to use serialization to prevent a device from working with replacement parts. It's okay for a device to user serialization to detect if the part has been replace and if the replacement is known to be compatible, but it's not okay for the device to refuse to work with a replacement part outright simply because the part ID is different.

2) Manufacturers should not be allowed to make exclusivity deals for parts with third party vendors. Apple should not be allowed to make a deal with Intersil that gives them exclusive rights to purchase the ISL9120 chip used in their Mac Books. This restriction should not extend to parts designed by the manufacturer whose production is merely contracted out to a third party.

3) Manufacturers should not be allowed to restrict sharing of schematics, specifications, or other legally acquired product information. If someone takes the time to map out the traces and identify the components on a circuit board, then they should be allowed to share that information without fear of legal threats.

4) Genuine used good should not be seized by customs under the pretext of them being "counterfeit".

5) Manufacturers shouldn't be allowed to restrict the purchase of replacement parts using "authorized repair" programs. If they're going to offer parts for repair, they should be available for purchase with no strings attached.

Others have already pointed it out, but Louis Rossmann's YouTube channel and Fight to Repair website have some great information on the problems faced by independent repair.

https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup

https://www.fighttorepair.org/

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#336

I believe that this right to repair stuff is really a reflection of a superceding market breakdown: oligopolistic power. Consumers want to do what they like with the things they own and some want the information needed to repair those things. Some companies don't have to offer this information or can get away with locking down their devices because they are immune from competition. This immunity is generally acquired…

>Some companies don't have to offer this information or can get away with locking down their devices because they are immune from competition. Oh it is much worse that this. These 'Some' companies actively block repair shops from purchasing spare parts so they can repair end-users' devices.

Agreed it can be much worse.

From the econ standpoint it's a rational move. Once you capture the users you do whatever you like.

I'm a little surprised a quality (magical like how Google used to be) search engine hasn't popped up.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#337
post #321
post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure consumers per se want it, but that companies think it's what consumers want, and only make things like that. It's a self fulfilling prophecy that customers will buy it. I dont have another choice

Manufacturers want planned obsolesce more than anyone. The problem in my view is that we take limited resources and combine it with slave labor to create landfill. Those few years of usage are not even that relevant. Recycling should be the first goal then repair ability. I think we can do this without the manufacturers drawing the proverbial short straw. Maybe we should get a partial refund when returning expired de…

> The problem in my view is that we take limited resources and combine it with slave labor to create landfill. Those few years of usage are not even that relevant.

That's an important insight.

I only recently realized this too, and conceptualized it as a pipeline:

     RAW    >   PRODUCT  > FINISHED >  A BIT > WASTE
  MATERIALS > COMPONENTS >  GOODS   > OF USE > MATTER
Now when we say that our economy grows exponentially, it means that the amount of matter traveling through this pipeline is growing exponentially too! The economy, as it is today, is essentially a rapidly growing system for turning usable resources into useless waste.

Here's the bad part though: adding recycling to any stage of this pipeline doesn't alter the overall behavior. It only recirculates some of the matter - recycling is never perfect. But as we know, if you recycle less than 100%, and then re-recycle that, and then re-recycle again, it still converges to zero. With an exponentially growing pipeline, recycling is only delaying the crisis a little bit.

Ultimately, we need to remove the exponent (or at least couple it to population growth, in the scenario where humanity expands into space). For now, we need to reduce it. And one of the best ways of doing that is... reducing use. Buying less. The less matter flows through the pipeline, the longer we have before it runs out.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#338
post #53

PCs and even most laptops have been very repairable for decades. You can still run Windows or Linux on a 10+ (20+?) year old laptop without an issue. The idea that a 5 year old laptop would be unusable or not get the latest version of Windows is unacceptable. Yet phones cost similar amounts and have nowhere near the repairability. A decade ago you could argue that it wasn't that important - specs were changing so qui…

The trend for lack of reparability in smartphones is because of consumer preferences. Consumers are consistently choosing devices that are smaller, lighter, higher durability, waterproof, cheaper etc. vs. devices that are more repairable that do not have those features.

but that's not a dichotomy

you can have both

we had smaller, lighter, more durable, waterproof, cheap phones in the 90s and they were also highly repairable

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if we (users) choose to only browse lean sites with our first-gen iPads, why should we (society) say “stop doing that”?

I don't think that it is correct to say that anyone is telling you anything. Apple has decided that they will drop support for devices after a certain period of time because the development effort of maintaining support is too costly given the number of users with the old hardware. If I could be emperor for a day I would just mandate that when they drop support an old device, they have to provide a way for users stil…

What I mean about we (society) is that it’s public opinion that supports or limits legislation. If a small group of people decide to use devices after they are unsupported, they also need support from society in general to be able to get the right to exercise that choice.

If we (society) don’t make the choice to actively support those rights, we are making the choice to let them die on the vine.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

> We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able Devices aren't built around discrete components anymore. That ship has sailed, we waved goodbye, partied on the dock, and took an Uber home. Now we're nursing the hangover. But hey, our phones are now marginally thinner than last year's phones, so that might be worth something. I don't see how we get back, considering the market…

This article is a great example of how the market niche exists and there are plenty of other markets (motor vehicles, industrial equipment, the maker scene) where right to repair is the norm. I'd argue the maker scene is bigger than it's even been and still growing, hence the increased increase in right to repair.

Exact discrete components aren't important becuase your usb IC isn't any more special than another usb IC that follows the specification. Your laptop display isn't special versus the others that use the same internal displayport ribbon cable.

Market aside this is effectively corporations attempting to take a right/freedom away from the people. The market can treat devices however it likes but if it crosses a threshold then applying rules and regulations that restrict it's freedom isn't a new magical concept.

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