It's your device, you should be able to repair it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#291

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

devoutsalsa wrote: post #284

nousermane wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can choose to forgo owning stuff personally, sure. But that is not everybody's preference. And please don't pretend that "devices aren't built around discrete components anymore". There are plenty of discrete components in a modern phone/laptop/roomba/whatever, that could be replaceable/upgradable by advanced user or entry-level technician, but are not: - battery - screen - storage - RAM - list goes on and on...

A big reason that stuff isn't replaceable anymore is because consumers wants some of the benefits that come w/ non-replaceable parts. For example, it's nice that I can drop my iPhone in water w/o worrying (too much) about destroying it. I spent ~$1500 on an iPhone 12 Pro in November & dropped it in a lake in December. Part of the reason it's (more) waterproof if because it's not covered w/ ports/hatches/openings that…

[deleted]

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#292

Post by snuxoll » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

emkoemko wrote: post #225

usaphp wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a good intention behind it, but it only works only if only honest people and companies exist. It’s not the case in real world. What would prevent a competitor simply copying the whole product and offering a cheaper price because they didn’t have to invest in R&D, and those engineers who spent many years working on a finished schematics will be out of job because the company won’t be able to make a living sellin…

there is a big big difference between a schematic that will aid people in repairs and ones that are used to manufacture the boards...and no one fighting for right to repair is asking for that anyways system76 talks about this in this interview https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGle6z9KfZQ

Nor is anybody asking for mask files for ICs, just that they be available for purchase at a reasonable price. Stuff like Apple getting proprietary charging ICs from Intersil that nobody else can buy to replace a defective one is unethical at best.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#293

Post by thereddaikon » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #180

alexvoda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

I wonder how big the manual would have to be for a smartphone with the equivalent of those old stereo diagrams.

Look up board view files. Those are the kinds of schematics people are talking about. Louis Rossman uses them on his Youtube channel to do board level repairs of Macs and iOS devices.

They are not all you need copy a device outright, contrary to what some people in the comments think. But they are sufficient for you to track down faulty components and de-solder them.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#294

Post by thereddaikon » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

1970-01-01 wrote: post #280

Please don't forget how jailbreaking your iPhone was illegal only 9 years ago, and jailbreaking the iPad wasn't legal until 2015!

And how it has to be renewed every few years because its only legal due to regulatory fiat instead of federal law.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#295

Post by kiba » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #273

TeMPOraL wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But their parent wasn't (in fact, they mentioned x86 and AMD, which are integrated circuits). Look at a random PC (or, until recently, a random laptop): it's made from a lot of individual components that can be swapped out or upgraded independently. Storage, RAM, CPU, GPU, cooling, motherboard, WiFi chip, Bluetooth chip, speakers, microphone, screen, all the peripherals - they're all designed to work together as a ca…

>These options are not being made available in the first place. Could it be because it's not financially feasible? If you present the idea of a repairable alternative to an iPad, are any investors going to take you up on it? I think a big aspect of this whole debate is that manufacturing efficiencies have gone up so much, that it's simply not economically worth it to sacrifice the resiliency and cost effectiveness of…

These devices can still be fixed, if only using specialized tools. However, it's another issue when manufacturers deliberately make these devices more difficult to fix such as using security screws.

Many of the modern smartphones can still be fixed as are laptops.

However, these repair shops only exist if they have the schematic and parts available.

it's not an efficiency issue. It's planned obsolescence.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#296

Post by munk-a » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #260

_underfl0w_ wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source to cite for "the approach that the vast majority of purchasers prefer"? That seems pretty speculative. The market can be manipulated or directed by more than simply consumer choice, e.g. by business incentives of product manufacturers.

> Do you have a source to cite for "the approach that the vast majority of purchasers prefer"? I mean, gestures at every consumer-targeted product made since at least the early 'oughts . People want things that are some combination of more capable, more convenient, more reliable, and less expensive. Different consumers obviously make different decisions, but there's a reason you can't go to a car lot and easily find…

Customers are incredibly short sighted when it comes to purchasing new things - shaving 10% off a price while cutting the expected lifetime of the product down from ten years to three is likely to capture most of the market.

I think this is a case where actors are acting in an irrational manner (i.e. not adhering to the perfectly rational actor assumption that's required for free-markets to function) and that necessitates government or other intervention to ensure that consumers are protected.

It's depressing because I absolutely agree with you that users aren't purchasing devices with an emphasis on being able to repair them. It is a pain point but not one that comes up at the register and so manufacturers are free to exploit the situation to provide marginally cheaper goods that require full replacement more frequently to ensure consistent sales.

Nobody wants to be like Hoover in the 90's that offered free plane tickets with vacuum purchases[1] and caused such an oversupply in the market that first party vacuum sales dwindled to nearly nothing over the next decade and that's fair. But we need to have a balance where we aren't rewarding manufacturers who build products that frequently break and for the consumer to make another purchase.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_free_flights_promotion

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#297

Post by OrwellianChild » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

LexGray wrote: post #279

datameta wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's set aside software RTR, which at first glance I believe has no increased costs associated (besides a decreased profit margin from lack of shortened support windows and a locked-down ecosystem). Could you expand on the specifics of what changes RTR would necessitate the hardware to have? Let's say beyond the fact that a non-reversible bond/connector would otherwise be the cheapest option (saving perhaps fraction…

Mandated right repair would raise weight for battery containers and latches, higher failure as connections would not be soldered in place and hinges and latches may fail, less water resistance as seals may get bumped loose, easier access for hardware hacks for bad actors, more potential consumer injury device damage during repair attempts, and more likely fire scenarios in planes and public areas from incorrectly ins…

Important distinction here! Right to repair does not prescribe design considerations! You can glue/solder/integrate all you want! Just need to make sure replacement parts are available and documentation is clear!

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#298

Post by 8note » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

devoutsalsa wrote: post #284

nousermane wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can choose to forgo owning stuff personally, sure. But that is not everybody's preference. And please don't pretend that "devices aren't built around discrete components anymore". There are plenty of discrete components in a modern phone/laptop/roomba/whatever, that could be replaceable/upgradable by advanced user or entry-level technician, but are not: - battery - screen - storage - RAM - list goes on and on...

A big reason that stuff isn't replaceable anymore is because consumers wants some of the benefits that come w/ non-replaceable parts. For example, it's nice that I can drop my iPhone in water w/o worrying (too much) about destroying it. I spent ~$1500 on an iPhone 12 Pro in November & dropped it in a lake in December. Part of the reason it's (more) waterproof if because it's not covered w/ ports/hatches/openings that…

I'm not sure consumers per se want it, but that companies think it's what consumers want, and only make things like that.

It's a self fulfilling prophecy that customers will buy it. I dont have another choice

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#299

Post by Sohcahtoa82 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

emkoemko wrote: post #256

shoto_io wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that’s my point. Why do buy a phone from company like that? Just stop buying from them and buy from another manufacturer instead and the problem will be solved.

okay true, but you think its fine for Apple to prevent you from taking out say your broken camera and replace it with a working one? or a LCD... or any part? You think its fine for say John Deer to prevent you from repairing your own tractor? if any part is replaces with exactly the same part but your tractor won't turn on because the "encryption link" is not correct? would you be fine with your car preventing you fr…

You're not making a convincing argument when the person you're arguing with is coming from the "free market" angle.

Someone arguing in favor of allowing market forces to solve the problem truly do think it's fine for Apple and John Deere to do those things. The solution for lack of repairability isn't to enact legislation to force them to make their products more repairable, it's to stop buying Apple and John Deere.

To a point, they're right, but relying on market solutions assumes rational consumers, which we have anything but. I think back about 7 years when I bought a Motorola Droid Turbo. Back then, consumers were asking for phones with longer-lasting batteries and screens that wouldn't shatter because you sneezed. This phone was exactly what consumers were asking for, with it's monstrous 3950 mAh battery, and a screen that could survive a 100-foot drop onto pavement (Saw a video of it!), but most people had never even heard of it, and still bought their iPhones and Samsung Galaxy phones which couldn't even survive a waist-high drop onto the sidewalk without cracking the screen.

Consumers are not rational, and so the market will never be rational, and relying on market solutions does not always work.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#300

Post by munk-a » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

alwaysdoit wrote: post #217

OrwellianChild wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your approach will always be a valid choice, for those who want it, and companies will be happy to provide that device-as-a-service model. R2R is just seeking to preserve the practical access to repairability for those who want to service their own devices.

No it's not, it's looking to enshrine that standard by law for everyone. Nothing is stopping consumers from demanding phones that are self-serviceable, they just simply aren't willing to accept the tradeoffs involved (larger size, worse thermals, higher price, etc). If you disagree, there's an unserved market segment wide open for you!

> No it's not, it's looking to enshrine that standard by law for everyone.

That's what's necessary IMO - since if it isn't required for all consumers than there is no motivation to make it available for any customers, we'll continue to be dragged down by the LCD as devices get less and less serviceable. Manufacturers don't like options - options cost money and each additional model you offer drives up how much you spend in storage and production line configuration, so they'll target the majority which probably does want to be able to repair devices but either doesn't realize it's still an option or doesn't have the financial freedom to invest in a higher quality device that has a higher upfront price tag but a lifespan that outlives that difference by leaps and bounds.