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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#491

Post by CRConrad »

tracer4201 wrote: post #489
CRConrad wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did they write that they were going to force you (or anyone else) to download stuff from these alternative app stores?

You’re missing the argument. Right now I have confidence that anything that can run on my device is signed off and approved by Apple. That gives me a sense of security and privacy. I don’t have to worry about something being approved or not approved. If there’s an app, I rely on Apple to have signed off on it. That’s why I buy iPhone. And all it really comes down to is that Apple has customers who repeatedly give the…

> You’re missing the argument.

No, you are.

> Right now I have confidence that anything that can run on my device is signed off and approved by Apple.

> That gives me a sense of security and privacy. I don’t have to worry about something being approved or not approved.

(Except apparently you do, judging from your previous paragraph.)

> If there’s an app, I rely on Apple to have signed off on it.

That's why people are saying they should allow other app stores beside their own: So they can continue to curate and ban apps in their own one, and still not be (seen as) totally evil monopolists who use their entrenched position to crush potential competition in the app space.

Keep installing apps only from the Official Apple App Store — don't even install another one (they'd probably put up lots of scary warnings around that) — and you'll still be just as safe as now. Just like all the other inmates.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#492

Post by gonehome »

perfobotto wrote: post #486
gonehome wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t work. It’s not content filtering that I care about, it’s the ability for Apple to enforce standards around usability and features that are better for their users. Without control of the store they lose that leverage. App devs will just ship outside of it and include all the tracking they want. It’ll also block Apple from being able to require things like Apple ID or Apple Pay support which provide direct…

This idea that having a separate App Store would completely render the ecosystem a Wild West of standards like Linux is something I never understood. If they allow side loading developers will still stick with the App Store and their standard if they want to sell, like it happens on android where devs stick with the play store . If people massively reject the App Store if alternative ways of installing an app become…

It’s valued by the users, not by the app devs.

It wouldn’t be an “alternative choice” app devs with leverage would ship outside of the store to bypass policy and force users to install shitty versions.

You might have to do this because of network effects.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#493

Post by stoobs »

skydhash wrote: post #449
shawnz wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think they were making any kind of claim about Apple's "special sauce", only that Apple has a monopoly on high-end hardware, which is true.

I'm always confused by this one. Every hardware company has a monopoly on their stuff. Sony with their PlayStation is a prime example of this. I've never seen anyone says they want to run their own game on it.

Well, other than the homebrew folks and those inclined to sail the high seas, very true. I don't get how this is suddenly an issue just because the device is portable - where is the outrage that developers can't distribute whatever they like on the Nintendo Switch outside of Nintendo's system (which also takes a 30% cut)?

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#494

Post by fnord77 »

rleigh wrote: post #278
fnord77 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a couple of friends who worked at google. they're always baffled why I would want to block trackers and data harvesters. And I'm baffled why they're baffled. Is the koolaid that strong and that permanent there?

Yes, it is. I went to interview at Google (a few years back now). Frankly, I was disturbed at the cult-like behaviour and attitudes of the majority of the employees I interacted with. For most of them, it was clearly their first job out of college, and they had no prior experience of working for a large corporate, or any objective perspective about what they were doing, or why. One hopes they will gain a little more…

"why wouldn't you want your ads personalized?" - that came out of a xoogler's mouth.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#495

Post by RealStickman_ »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #23

You can have third-party Android app stores. Can you say the same about Apple? While I agree that Google has market-dominance, they are not anti-competition or anti-consumer in the same sense as Apple. Android is open source, Chrome OS is open source, etc. Google is actually providing and contributing something back to the community. Apple intentionally locks people to specific hardware and to their app store.

Third party stores are extremely limited on Android.

* Install dialog pops up every time you want to install an app

* No automatic background updates

These things can be changed with root, but you shouldn't have to root your device to gain this basic functionality.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#496

Post by MR4D »

amelius wrote: post #338
gonehome wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

> Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. You and Apple are conflating "App Store" and "Content Filter". We can have multiple App Stores and multiple types of content filters. It doesn't need to be like the current situation, with Apple in full control over everything.

> It doesn't need to be like the current situation, with Apple in full control over everything.

Yes it does. Because otherwise you will need to install tons of app stores to install all the apps you currently use.

For instance, I would have to install the Epic store to install Fortnite. Now that’s two apps (the store app plus Fortnite app) and then I’d be less confident about the level of quality and security that the added store provides.

It is this particular situation that seems very hard to overcome from a regulatory perspective. So one you allow multiple app stores, the specialness that people like me have for our trusted devices disappears.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#497

Post by MR4D »

amelius wrote: post #385
emodendroket wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hardly impossible to install third-party software on your phone if you're up for base jump levels of risk.

It's getting more difficult every day. And I don't want to punch Mickey Mouse every time I go climbing.

Honest question - why do you have to climb this mountain?

I’m genuinely curious, because to me that’s the equivalent of telling Ford that you want a Ferrari engine in your mustang.

Maybe if someone could help me understand this I would be more open to those kinds of ideas.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#498

Post by gonehome »

skohan wrote: post #404
gonehome wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn’t work. It’s not content filtering that I care about, it’s the ability for Apple to enforce standards around usability and features that are better for their users. Without control of the store they lose that leverage. App devs will just ship outside of it and include all the tracking they want. It’ll also block Apple from being able to require things like Apple ID or Apple Pay support which provide direct…

I just don't find this very compelling. It's fine for me if the "default mode" of use for Apple's products is a filtered, curated experience. If users have to jump through even a few hoops to side-load apps, 99% of casual users will not do it.

We already see this on PCs with competing game distributors (Steam, Origin, Epic) - we'd see the same on iOS too.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#499

Post by tracer4201 »

CRConrad wrote: post #491
tracer4201 wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re missing the argument. Right now I have confidence that anything that can run on my device is signed off and approved by Apple. That gives me a sense of security and privacy. I don’t have to worry about something being approved or not approved. If there’s an app, I rely on Apple to have signed off on it. That’s why I buy iPhone. And all it really comes down to is that Apple has customers who repeatedly give the…

> You’re missing the argument. No, you are. > Right now I have confidence that anything that can run on my device is signed off and approved by Apple. > That gives me a sense of security and privacy. I don’t have to worry about something being approved or not approved. (Except apparently you do, judging from your previous paragraph.) > If there’s an app, I rely on Apple to have signed off on it. That's why people are…

I don’t think they’re seen as evil monopolists, as you’ve described. That’s quite frankly just your opinion because Apple won’t let you do what you want. Again, you’re talking around me. My argument is I buy their products because I know my device can only execute programs they explicitly signed off.

>just like all the other inmates.

You’re arguing in bad faith and launching into personal attacks. :)

No one is crushing competition in the app space. Don’t do bad things and I’m sure Apple will list your app on their App Store. Your exaggerations of monopolizing are merely that — exaggerations. We have 13 year olds selling apps or giving free apps on Apples App Store. They literally brought the idea to the masses and executed it flawlessly.

If you don’t like it, you’re welcome to go create your own phone and your own App Store. No one is stopping you, and no you’re not entitled to run whatever code on peoples phones... especially when those people don’t know what they might be downloading.

Since you’re venturing into personal attacks, I’m not going to engage any further.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#500

Post by TchoBeer »

CRConrad wrote: post #476
havernator wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple can no longer force vendors who want access to iOS to play by the rules that I want them to be forced to play by, is the main risk of adding more stores. I bought iOS devices in part for the effects of that leverage—I chose that. It's also a choice.

So only install apps from the Apple App Store then. How do other app stores where developers aren't forced to play by those Apple rules affect you then?

Because then I can't install any of the apps that are no longer on the app store.
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