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Excess Deaths in 2020

kieranhealy.org

161–170 of 220 posts

Re: Excess Deaths in 2020

#161
post #98

I'm suprised by the number of people arguing for and against the lockdowns using just deaths statistics. Lockdowns of the duration that we experienced should be illegal because they take away the citizens' liberties to an extent that no government should be able to take them away. It has nothing to do with health.

>Lockdowns of the duration that we experienced should be illegal

I fully agree with you. If people want to sit at home it should be a personal choice. However people do like to control other peoples lives, that is the bottom line and they will use any argument to justify it.

Re: Excess Deaths in 2020

#162

Here is some more data. Deaths from all causes has declined rapidly in the U.S. since January. The red dotted line is my best attempt to correct for reporting lag: https://i.imgur.com/z8M0k2h.png Excess deaths exceeded COVID deaths every week of the pandemic: https://i.imgur.com/MeGMsRx.png Total excess deaths in the U.S. were about 500,000 for 2020. The excess breaks down as 77% COVID, 16% non-COVID natural causes,…

>Excess deaths exceeded COVID deaths every week of the pandemic: https://i.imgur.com/MeGMsRx.png

Not entirely sure how to parse that statement, but I think most people would interpret that as "non-COVID excess deaths exceeded COVID deaths", which doesn't match what's on your graph. E.g. for week 15, expected deaths = 55k, deaths - COVID = 63k and all deaths=79k.

The only truthful way to interpret your statement is that "excess deaths (including COVID deaths) exceeded COVID deaths". Which isn't that interesting of a statistic.

Re: Excess Deaths in 2020

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This analysis presumes that hospital emergency and critical care capacity is flexible (it's not), that we can expect medical professionals to keep on performing at 100% in the face of overwhelming stress (they will not), and that Canada would somehow succeed at what Italy did not back in the first half of 2020 by doing even less mitigation. An argument in favour of no mitigation would have to demonstrate: 1. covid-re…

> This analysis presumes that hospital emergency and critical care capacity is flexible (it's not), that we can expect medical professionals to keep on performing at 100% in the face of overwhelming stress No I'm not. Remember, what I said was: "So in many circumstances the hospitals would be overloaded for less total time and thus lead to less non-covid excess deaths ." Let's assume hospitals are severely overloaded…

> Let's assume hospitals are severely overloaded, and are simply unable to treat COVID patients. The pedantic meaning of what I said will certainly be true: non-covid excess deaths will be less.

Even the pedantic interpretation does not necessarily hold. Though healthcare resources for life-threatening conditions are not strictly zero-sum, many of them would effectively be once covid overwhelms existing ICU and ED capacity. There are plenty of examples of personnel being pulled from e.g. cancer care or cardiology teams to help in covid wards. This directly translates to increased wait times for patients in those categories, much like would happen if people were putting off getting checked out themselves.

Moveover, hospitals and healthcare systems to not just "bounce back" after being severely overloaded. Staffing is already strained, and unless you ban clinicians from taking leave you would see cascading reductions in capacity after a couple months of being overloaded. This is to say nothing of the equipment shortages we had in the early days of the pandemic. Ultimately, patients who would require care for non-covid reasons would still suffer because of a massive backlog. Determining whether this backlog would be larger or more/less harmful when amortized compared to what we have now requires health economics analysis that I am certainly not qualified to perform.

> Frankly, I suspect that problem is made worse by a long, dragged out, pandemic. People can often handle a short period of extreme stress better than they can handle a much longer period of high stress.

This feels right to me too, though I've not the literature to verify it. However, it's an equally valid argument for strict short-term lockdowns a la New Zealand, Australia, Vietnam, Taiwan, etc. That is to say, it does not follow that not mitigating is the only reasonable strategy to prevent a dragged out pandemic.

A better (if grim) post-hoc analysis of Canada would be to compare the Atlantic provinces (less densely populated, strictly enforced interventions), the other smaller provinces (less densely populated, few interventions until recently) and the large provinces (densely populated, moderate but very poorly enforced interventions). My guess is that all three approaches will not be found to be equally effective.

Re: Excess Deaths in 2020

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> caused by the lockdown (i.e. delayed elective medical procedures, suicides, etc.) That's a dangerous way to phrase it. People would delay the elective medical procedures due to covid, even without lockdown. Overwhelmed hospitals would enforce the same. The covid/lockdown split of excess deaths is very complicated in itself.

Since natural immunity is durable, an unmitigated pandemic would be over sooner. So in many circumstances the hospitals would be overloaded for less total time and thus lead to less non-covid excess deaths. Here in Canada, excess deaths in 2020 for the 15 to 64 age range has been abnormally high, starting in March. Yet, unlike older age groups, the level of excess does not follow the pattern of reported COVID infecti…

[deleted]

Re: Excess Deaths in 2020

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought that the purpose of lockdown (in the UK at least) was to prevent health care from being overwhelmed, at which point deaths would drastically increase. So we don't really know how many people would have died without lockdown to make a comparison, but it would have been a lot higher. If the health service is completely overloaded it means people would start dying from all sorts of other things too. Am I missi…

I guess the point is that if lockdowns are ineffective, you are going to reach the overload point regardless. The fact that it did not happen means that I would not have happened anyway.

You’re treating healthcare overload as a binary condition when it is not. It matters how much your healthcare system is overloaded. If the system is 10% over capacity, then 1 out of 11 people aren’t getting proper treatment and run an increased risk of dying. If your system is 50% over capacity then only 2 out of 3 people are getting proper treatment. Neither is great, but they’re objectively not the same levels of risk or outcome.

Even if lockdowns are ineffective at preventing overload, it doesn’t follow that they can’t reduce the severity of that overload, or that the outcome would be the same either way.

Re: Excess Deaths in 2020

#167

Here is some more data. Deaths from all causes has declined rapidly in the U.S. since January. The red dotted line is my best attempt to correct for reporting lag: https://i.imgur.com/z8M0k2h.png Excess deaths exceeded COVID deaths every week of the pandemic: https://i.imgur.com/MeGMsRx.png Total excess deaths in the U.S. were about 500,000 for 2020. The excess breaks down as 77% COVID, 16% non-COVID natural causes,…

>Excess deaths exceeded COVID deaths every week of the pandemic: https://i.imgur.com/MeGMsRx.png Not entirely sure how to parse that statement, but I think most people would interpret that as "non-COVID excess deaths exceeded COVID deaths", which doesn't match what's on your graph. E.g. for week 15, expected deaths = 55k, deaths - COVID = 63k and all deaths=79k. The only truthful way to interpret your statement is th…

It is very interesting. It means that either covid deaths were undercounted, or something else unique to 2020 also killed a large number of people, or both.

Re: Excess Deaths in 2020

#168
post #59

I'm curious if there's a good way to breakdown how much is caused by COVID vs., say, caused by the lockdown (i.e. delayed elective medical procedures, suicides, etc.). For example the US suicide rate declined from 2018 to 2019, but went back up in 2020. Naively assuming that all of the increase was due to the effects of the lockdowns would attribute ~2,880 suicides to them (or more if in a counterfactual world the su…

You could compare the excess deaths for New Zealand, South Korea, Australia and other countries that were able to prevent Sars-CoV-2 from spreading with strict lockdowns. Diagnostic delays are not caused by lockdowns. They are caused by an overwhelmed health care system or the fear of infection, both of which are caused by high incidence. You also need to consider the damage that long covid possibly do over the next…

To add some stats. In Au and NZ we had a big drop in flu cases https://info.flutracking.net/reports-2/new-zealand-reports/

Not sure what that did to the death rate.

Re: Excess Deaths in 2020

#170
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry that reality doesn’t line up with your preconceived notions so you feel the need to lash out with name calling etc. Consider sitting, back taking a deep breath, and then stepping away from the computer to do something you enjoy.

> reality doesn’t line up with your preconceived notions I'm claiming this precise thing, that you're arrogantly presuming that everyone can just hole up in their house like the elite class of people who do nothing but berate the (almost always) lower class people who do not have the privilege to stay home.

> that you're arrogantly presuming that everyone

Gp didn't claim that. You're putting words in their mouth and lashing out for things they never said.

A reasonable interpretation of their claims is that even if not everyone can hole up, government policies that are intense encourage everyone to hole up as much as they can.

It's also worth mentioning that many, many working class people did not enjoy the fact that they had to take on risk in order to survive. Pretending everything is fine simply offloads even more risk onto those people.

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