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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#301

Post by andromeduck »

shkkmo wrote: post #89
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

I think one aspect of Polarization in the US is that a big part of it is our expectations of polarization. I think we strongly overestimate the degree to which we can predict someone's political views and world outlook from a single statement. I am worried we are in a positive feedback were perceptions of polarization lead to self-censorship among the less polarized, which further drives the perceptions of polarizati…

Worse yet, the language gets so abstract and contorted it becomes hard to find areas where there is strong consensus matter of practice. We can't agree on concrete policies because people can't agree on why something shoud be done and not how. And even when there exists consensus for both for some subset everyone wants to use it as leverage to get their entire position so we end up with more status quo. You see this with Republicans and Obamacare, as well as the DSA crowd and Medicare expansions proposed by Warren/Clinton/Butti.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#302

Post by msg3 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #261
msg3 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I think that's a good thing. But I don't see think that's incompatible with my view here - that freedom of speech doesn't mean I have the right to say anything and expect to keep my job. If I was to say something offensive, I should be accorded due process, but the result of that process may be that I'm let go.

Sure, I probably largely agree with that. But there's a difference between what you're describing and what often happens in the real world where a twitter mob calls for you to be fired and your company immediately shitcans you to placate the yobs. e.g. https://arstechnica.com/staff/2013/03/donglegate-is-classic-...

I'd agree that a twitter mob getting someone fired is in most cases a bad thing and I can think of a bunch of reasons why it's a bad thing. But "infringing on the employees right to free speech" isn't one of them.

This might seem a bit pedantic, but I do think it's important. If something is a violation of someone's rights then there doesn't need to be any further discussion - it shouldn't be allowed. I think claiming that this is a free speech issue is not only wrong, but also shuts down much needed discussion about where we set the limits of our tolerance.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#303

Post by zozbot234 »

makomk wrote: post #299
concordDance wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The overton window has shifted to the left on many issues. E.g. trans rights In my own workplace the overton window shifted notably left in gender issues in the last decade. You make a good point about hn people not being representative though.

The shift on trans rights isn't simply a shift to the left though - it's more like the mainstream/"liberal" view on trans rights has shifted and the left-wing progressive activists have been dragged along behind it, whilst insisting all the way that they were a vital spearhead of trans rights and that not agreeing uncritically with them about everything and censoring dissenting views is an attack on trans people's ex…

I have trouble describing any view wrt. trans folks as "mainstream". The dynamic you describe is quite real but it looks like the result of salami-slicing politics within progressive activism itself, rather than any discernible 'mainstream' influence.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#304

Post by evgen »

Clewza313 wrote: post #268
evgen wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ah yes. It shouldn’t even be legal for people to question your viewpoint. Because when has discussion ever been a valuable thing? Sometimes discussion serves no value. I will not bother to discuss racial theories with a member of the Proud Boys or KKK because the discussion is a waste of time. No one has made any claim regarding legality here, so you are free to question any viewpoint and should be prepared to face…

Do you not see the irony in labeling people who politely disagree with you "members of the KKK"? Or are you just trolling?

All who politely disagree are not members of the KKK, but those who are should be ignored. The range of casual racism and misogyny that can safely be dismissed and ignored has increased. This seems to be the source of most of this conflict, but it is unlikely to change in the future.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#305

Post by xupybd »

Closi wrote: post #287
switch007 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense. This resonates deeply. I'm at the point where "I'm entitled to my opinion!" is a great signal to change the topic, never to return to the topic of politics with that person ever again

I think that might be a signal that you have already gone too far into the convo too!

It's a shame if that's the case some of my favorite discussions have been with people tht disagree with me. I hope we haven't lost the ability to have a disagreement and remain friends.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#306

Post by yerwhat01010 »

toyg wrote: post #248
yerwhat01010 wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a lot of old-school lefties in the UK consider Blair's New Labour to be centre-right, "Red Tories" etc. Blair might have been left-wing but he certainly wasn't a socialist. The "left" in Britain arguably haven't won an election since 1974.

It has to be considered that "the left" has been structurally divided in three parties (Lab, LibDem, Greens) for most of this period, which is a cardinal sin in the British system. The right had fewer splits, and arguably none of them is comparably structural.

Yes, FPTP is the worst.

The left might have lost a lot of elections, but I think you can still make a case for the original point the "right-of-centre" are a minority in the UK, even if it's only a narrow majority. The Conservatives haven't won a majority of the popular vote in nearly 90 years (but then neither has any party)

https://www.statista.com/statistics/717004/general-elections...

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#307

Post by read_if_gay_ »

evgen wrote: post #226
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the assumption that 'viewpoint diversity' is either valuable or worth cultivating on all subjects, this is not true. Ah yes. It shouldn’t even be legal for people to question your viewpoint. Because when has discussion ever been a valuable thing? Or when has a political fashion ever turned out to be sorely wrong, and new viewpoints were needed? Wait, I remember a few times - but I’m sure that this time is going to…

> Ah yes. It shouldn’t even be legal for people to question your viewpoint. Because when has discussion ever been a valuable thing? Sometimes discussion serves no value. I will not bother to discuss racial theories with a member of the Proud Boys or KKK because the discussion is a waste of time. No one has made any claim regarding legality here, so you are free to question any viewpoint and should be prepared to face…

You argued that we shouldn't always have viewpoint diversity. If you don't have viewpoint diversity you have viewpoint monoculture. There is no way this is going to happen short of enforcing it legally (even then there is going to be dissent, so you would rather need something like brainwash, which should already tell you everything about whether this is a good idea, really.)

> I have never seen _anyone_ other than a frightened white male use the term 'virtue signalling'

I think this statement is fairly telling regarding the degree to which you seem to interpret everything through your particular political lens. Together with your use of "conventional" almost as if it were an insult, and talk of "sides"/the KKK/"losing" it's like you think you're part of some revolution. I would seriously consider whether that's true.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#308

Post by [deleted] »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #192
dr_dshiv wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say that this is a failure of philosophy in political leadership. Not that philosophy was ever paramount in politics, but it was at least expected in the highest classes. Everything devolves into tribalism without philosophy. It looks like people are discoursing, but they are really just signalling.

> It looks like people are discoursing, but they are really just signalling. I was looking to put words on my feeling about this, and you did it perfectly. I was wondering why suddenly so many people voiced the same engaged opinion, while I know for having discussed with them in private settings that they don't think deeply about society. Now I realize that's because they want to look like they belong to a certain ki…

[deleted]

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#309

Post by sharikone »

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #182
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense. This is so true. I've seen polling showing that large numbers of people believe that the number of unarmed black men fatally shot by American police every year is in the "thousands" or even "tens of thousands". And the further to the left the media people consume, the higher they're likely to believe the number is. The ac…

In things like that I think that more scientific-oriented workplaces would not create this fear. People with a hard science background respect factual information.

And also the ethical implications of shooting 13 unarmed people in a year can still be a subject of debate.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#310

Post by Tycho »

livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

Lot of advice floating about the workplace these days along the lines of be candid, join the conversation, bring your whole self to work, etc. The people giving this advice seem to have no conception that not everyone actively engaged in these topics is acting in 100% good faith. Being too open could so easily backfire. Encouraging this is borderline negligent. Indeed there’s entire branches of activism that rest on bad-faith ideologies. Good advice would be to avoid controversial and political discussions and to keep a strong separation between your private life and your work life. Instead, we have employers, especially universities, asking staff to promote their organisations through their personal social media accounts.
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