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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#181

Post by [deleted] »

jb775 wrote: post #156
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> how willingly other people bring up politically sensitive issues in the workplace I'd say I'm a mix of conservative/Libertarian and this kind of blows my mind over the past few years. It seems like I constantly hear people on the left openly voicing their political opinions around crowds of people, and always speak in a way that they genuinely believe everyone around them agrees....and often have a condescending wa…

[deleted]

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#182

Post by yerwhat01010 »

livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense.

This is so true.

I've seen polling showing that large numbers of people believe that the number of unarmed black men fatally shot by American police every year is in the "thousands" or even "tens of thousands". And the further to the left the media people consume, the higher they're likely to believe the number is.

The actual number of unarmed black men shot dead by American police in 2019 is thirteen.

Regardless of what you think about racism and police violence, this is a fact. People who think that "thousands" of unarmed black men are killed by police every year are not only numerous, they are wrong - so absurdly, wildly wrong by so many orders of magnitude that if you tell tell me that the number is in the thousands, I'm going to assume you're deeply uninformed on many other things, not just this one number.

Yet in the current climate I'd be afraid to even correct people on this enormous, inarguable factual innaccuracy.

(And good luck explaining to people that "unarmed" isn't synonymous with "innocent" - you can be unarmed and still give a cop a good reason to shoot you, for example by attacking the cop with your fists.)

Is it really too much to ask that we leave this stuff out of the workplace?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#183

Post by yerwhat01010 »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #121
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

Engaging in real-life political discussions in the current climate is basically all risk, zero reward.

Only if you have "incorrect" opinions.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#184

Post by MisterBastahrd »

efaref wrote: post #127
samsari wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because I support your right to say it doesn't mean I have to celebrate what you say, or why you said it.

This is exactly the problem. "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has been replaced with "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences". The latter is, of course, utter nonsense. Repercussions or retaliation for expressing wrongthink is the literal definition of a place that does not have freedom of speech.

The real issue here is that people never had to utter "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences" in the past because people had an implicit understanding that this was reality.

If a Catholic school teacher declares publicly that women should have the right to choose to have an abortion, what do you think her chances are of retaining her employment at that school?

Conservatives would claim that the school has a right to fire the teacher, because it's just freedom of religion, as if somehow that particular freedom should supersede the others.

So what changed?

Oh, right, the country has shifted left and Christianity is not the dominant social force that it used to be. One man's belief in a man in the sky is no more important than another's alignment with a set of moral values.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#185

Post by ttt0 »

msg3 wrote: post #180
efaref wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting it to legal consequences is not enough. There are also physical and psychological safety consequences that are relevant. You're not, for example, free to speak your mind if expressing wrongthink will result in a punch to the face. In the context of a workplace (being the topic of this post, after all), one such consequence is the loss of your job. Something that is very real these days, with so-called activi…

Punching people in the face is illegal regardless of the reason - I don't really see how that's relevant? Are you really saying that it should be impossible for someone to lose their job over what they say? If someone, for example, threatened to kill a co-worker, you don't think they should be fired? I appreciate that this is an extreme example, but when we talk about rights, don't we have to cover all examples of sp…

> Punching people in the face is illegal regardless of the reason - I don't really see how that's relevant?

The 'freedom of speech is not freedom from consequences' was popularized (repopularized?) and became a somewhat mainstream talking point in America around 2016-17 to justify political violence with the "punch a nazi" thing and stuff. It's the "paradox of tolerance".

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#186

Post by switch007 »

livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense.

This resonates deeply. I'm at the point where "I'm entitled to my opinion!" is a great signal to change the topic, never to return to the topic of politics with that person ever again

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#187

Post by ForHackernews »

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #183
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engaging in real-life political discussions in the current climate is basically all risk, zero reward.

Only if you have "incorrect" opinions.

There's not a lot of reward even for the bien pensant.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#188

Post by jjbinx007 »

iso1210 wrote: post #160
natchy wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > We asked whether it is “fair or unfair for people who say grossly offensive things to be at risk of losing their livelihoods?” Nationally, 48 percent believe it is “fair,” but this figure rises to 65 percent for social democrat-aligned Labour voters, compared with 39 percent for right-leaning Conservative voters. Meaning right leaning are more likely to live and let live.

"right leaning" is a minority in the UK, and if you exclude those who've retired it's a small minority. Minorities tend to be more accepting of speech that goes against the majority view.

We've not had a Labour government in the UK for 11 years and counting.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#189

Post by thu2111 »

nanagojo wrote: post #2

This is a pretty bleak look at the future tbh. Guess the bullies won in the end, except this time the bullies believe they are in the right.

Maybe. To me this article is useful because it precisely bounds the size of the group that genuinely feels this way. 13%. Not that large, really. Could a determined company get rid of half of those, sending a strong message to the other half to get back to work? Yeah, definitely. Could you refuse to hire people with these views without significantly losing out in the market for skilled employees? I think so, especially as they skew young (i.e. inexperienced).

It wasn't really clear before how large this group of radicals is because they are so aggressive and noisy. But they're a small minority.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#190

Post by steve_gh »

logicchains wrote: post #168
callamdelaney wrote: post #138

Is there a way we can detect these people and not hire them? It takes enough restraint to refrain from commenting on rampant virtue signalling on LinkedIn and I often fail. Having to deal with it at work would be a step too far.

How about something like, ask their opinion on a contentious technical issue (like dynamic vs static typing). Then, after they've finished answering, ask them to argue sincerely for the opposite viewpoint, and see if they can. A common trait among cancel culture types is they're unwilling to hear/consider the perspectives of people who disagree with them, so they wouldn't be able to fairly present the opposing argume…

> I think in some European countries this is even part of labor law (so a company can't e.g. fire a worker for hearing he went out drinking heavily on the weekend).

That would depend. The industry I work in (infrastructure management) is very H&S focused, so if you weren't completely sober and able to work safely on Monday morning you would be at best sent home, and at worst fired.

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