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New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

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Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#241

Post by msg3 »

lhnz wrote: post #222
msg3 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. You want your speech to be free from consequences -- i.e if you were to call someone a liar / cheat, they can't change their opinion of you based on what you've said? How is that compatible with their freedom of thought? To me, freedom of speech means I shouldn't worry about legal repercussions for expressing wrongthink. There is perhaps a separate discussion to be had about the…

Let's talk concretely about the consequence that is most fraught. Should employees be fired for expressing political positions at work that their employer disagrees with? Should all employees be told to focus on their companies mission instead? Previously progressives seemed happy for the former to happen, but now they seem annoyed that they also might have their free speech squashed. What kind of consequences are ac…

Surely that depends on a number of things -- the nature of the employer's business, the manner in which the opinion is expressed, etc? I think businesses should generally be free to set their own terms and conditions, provided they are compatible with the nation's labour rights.

Personally, I'd prefer to live in a society where people are encouraged to have frank and respectful exchanges of views, and I'd prefer to work for a business where I'm not afraid to share my views, but equally where political discussion is not a large part of workplace culture.

But that's just my preference _- we're not discussing what should happen, but what rights people have, and no, I don't think you have the right to say whatever you like and keep your job.

That doesn't mean your boss should fire you because he disagrees with something you said, but it does mean it should be possible, provided you are accorded due process.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#242

Post by cycomanic »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #211
frereubu wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an unfair characterisation. I read it as the commenter using racism purely as an example where reduced diversity of opinion towards no racism is a good thing, not saying that all opponents of diversity are racist.

The commenter picked racism as an example, because they think viewpoint diversity is bad, and racism is a good example of a "bad" viewpoint.

No the commenter picked racism as an example, because they think viewpoint diversity is not necessarily good. Big difference to your statement.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#243

Post by oblio »

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #121
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

Engaging in real-life political discussions in the current climate is basically all risk, zero reward.

From what I remember, in polite circles it was always known that you should never discuss politics and religion with anyone except your immediate family and close friends.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#244

Post by yerwhat01010 »

jjbinx007 wrote: post #188
iso1210 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"right leaning" is a minority in the UK, and if you exclude those who've retired it's a small minority. Minorities tend to be more accepting of speech that goes against the majority view.

We've not had a Labour government in the UK for 11 years and counting.

And a lot of old-school lefties in the UK consider Blair's New Labour to be centre-right, "Red Tories" etc. Blair might have been left-wing but he certainly wasn't a socialist.

The "left" in Britain arguably haven't won an election since 1974.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#245

Post by [deleted] »

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #182
livinginfear wrote: post #80

I consider myself a very politically informed person. I'm not a politically active person however, largely for the reasons mentioned in the article. I considered myself a liberal by the standards of the time I grew up in. My views on some social issues, particularly 'free speech', are considered a conservative now. I am one of the people the article is concerning who will not publicly voice their political opinions i…

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense. This is so true. I've seen polling showing that large numbers of people believe that the number of unarmed black men fatally shot by American police every year is in the "thousands" or even "tens of thousands". And the further to the left the media people consume, the higher they're likely to believe the number is. The ac…

[deleted]

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#246

Post by toyg »

lhnz wrote: post #222
msg3 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. You want your speech to be free from consequences -- i.e if you were to call someone a liar / cheat, they can't change their opinion of you based on what you've said? How is that compatible with their freedom of thought? To me, freedom of speech means I shouldn't worry about legal repercussions for expressing wrongthink. There is perhaps a separate discussion to be had about the…

Let's talk concretely about the consequence that is most fraught. Should employees be fired for expressing political positions at work that their employer disagrees with? Should all employees be told to focus on their companies mission instead? Previously progressives seemed happy for the former to happen, but now they seem annoyed that they also might have their free speech squashed. What kind of consequences are ac…

Uhm, I'm not following you. Historically, employees who "expressed political opinions" would typically support leftist/progressive views that their employer would disagree with; hence why laws were passed to protect their rights in this area (at least in Europe). So I don't think anybody on the left was ever "happy" that an employer could fire someone for their political position, as a general concept.

What might have some support is the idea that an employer could fire someone holding positions that are incompatible with the majority of other employees. We can argue about the best way to regulate this, but it's a different and horizontal view of determining the boundaries of civil coexistence.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#247

Post by frereubu »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #211
frereubu wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's an unfair characterisation. I read it as the commenter using racism purely as an example where reduced diversity of opinion towards no racism is a good thing, not saying that all opponents of diversity are racist.

The commenter picked racism as an example, because they think viewpoint diversity is bad, and racism is a good example of a "bad" viewpoint.

I don't agree. I think they were pointing out that the issue is more complex than "viewpoint diversity is good per se". Although these discussions are almost invariably terrible in comment sections because they lack the nuance of spoken discussion, so either of us could be right. I just chose to assume good faith and the strongest plausible interpretation of what they said.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#248

Post by toyg »

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #244
jjbinx007 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've not had a Labour government in the UK for 11 years and counting.

And a lot of old-school lefties in the UK consider Blair's New Labour to be centre-right, "Red Tories" etc. Blair might have been left-wing but he certainly wasn't a socialist. The "left" in Britain arguably haven't won an election since 1974.

It has to be considered that "the left" has been structurally divided in three parties (Lab, LibDem, Greens) for most of this period, which is a cardinal sin in the British system.

The right had fewer splits, and arguably none of them is comparably structural.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#249

Post by the-smug-one »

oblio wrote: post #243
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engaging in real-life political discussions in the current climate is basically all risk, zero reward.

From what I remember, in polite circles it was always known that you should never discuss politics and religion with anyone except your immediate family and close friends.

"The Fall of Public Man" argues that we actually used to be more political and had to "put our cards on the table" so to speak. This would be as opposed to now, where we are very much able to hide our positions if we so please.

I don't know what polite circles would be, but I suppose some sort of aristocracy? Certainly gentile society in 1780s in France were not scared of expressing heavy political discourse in public. Nor were the rich Romans.

Edit: And just to be clear. Rich people may perhaps only speak politics with their closest friends, but they certainly act politically with the use of their capital. Imitating them by shutting up has no point and is detrimental to a democratic society.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#250

Post by vagrantJin »

eyko wrote: post #230
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I upvoted you because I don't think you should be downvoted for expressing your opinion. But I also think we should wonder: how many white armed men were killed?

The number of white armed men shot by police in 2019 was, according to the Washington Post database[1], between 388 and 398. The number of white unarmed men shot by police in 2019 was 26. According to this source, the number of black unarmed men shot by police in 2019 was not 13, but 12. The number of armed black men shot by police was 240, possibly 241. 1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic…

This is why spouting stats to make a point is dangerous, murky water. Tread carefully.

Stats can give us quantitative views but give no opinion on the qualitative view.

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