New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#221

Post by hirple » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:11 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #169

jl6 wrote: post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

> Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. Actually, it would be nice if you left politics out of HN, too. In theory you could talk about politics and policy in a way that's conducive to intellectual interest and curiosity, but I've literally never seen this happen here with any consistency. The political threads are always littered with knee-jerk hot takes that just don't belong here from an intellectual POV. To be very…

I agree with you - but the standards elsewhere seem to be so much lower even than here that I think it's (possibly) worthwhile having political discussions on HN.

Of course, I would love to know of a place that discusses things even more sensibly.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#222

Post by lhnz » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:11 AM UTC

msg3 wrote: post #147

efaref wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem. "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it" has been replaced with "freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences". The latter is, of course, utter nonsense. Repercussions or retaliation for expressing wrongthink is the literal definition of a place that does not have freedom of speech.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree here. You want your speech to be free from consequences -- i.e if you were to call someone a liar / cheat, they can't change their opinion of you based on what you've said? How is that compatible with their freedom of thought? To me, freedom of speech means I shouldn't worry about legal repercussions for expressing wrongthink. There is perhaps a separate discussion to be had about the…

Let's talk concretely about the consequence that is most fraught.

Should employees be fired for expressing political positions at work that their employer disagrees with? Should all employees be told to focus on their companies mission instead?

Previously progressives seemed happy for the former to happen, but now they seem annoyed that they also might have their free speech squashed.

What kind of consequences are acceptable?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#223

Post by efaref » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:11 AM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #202

efaref wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not really sure what the amendments to the US constitution have to do with a post about British workplaces, but I think you have a very different view on "freedom of speech" than the classically liberal one that it is arguably founded upon. That's OK, of course. In the UK we don't have and have never had freedom of speech. In fact, we have some of the harshest libel laws in the world. There are very many conseque…

I'm not from the US either, however I wanted to frame the argument in a way that would be understandable to the majority on this site. > "But this post is about people self-censoring their opinions, particularly in the workplace, for fear of repercussions, and that is something that absolutely is getting worse. Like many others I steer clear of all of these topics myself, as even though I hold "approved" opinions on…

You can call my fears "horse manure" if you like, but that doesn't really change the fact that I have them. Based on how I've seen some of my (now ex-)colleagues treated when they have spoken up, I don't think they are at all unfounded.

And yes, people have been discriminated against for who they are, or what they believe, for a long long time. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#224

Post by strken » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

twoslide wrote: post #179

jl6 wrote: post #124

Personal politics has absolutely no place in the workplace unless you’re working in politics. Nothing good can come of it. Leave it to the pub and Hacker News. My workplace is a wonderful bastion of big-P-Politics-free collaboration. It is an apolitical safe space. My colleagues and I absolutely do have political views, but there is just no reason whatsoever to share them at work. “Bring your whole self to work” is a…

I'm not sure there is such a thing as an "apolitical space" - it is kind of like trying to remain stationary on a moving train. Even if you don't discss contentious issues, political parties, etc, you are still part of social and economic systems premised on political views. For example, one might say they don't talk about climate change/sexism/racism in the work place and therefore it is apolitical, but to another v…

I disagree with this, firstly on the principle that if you ask someone on a moving train to stand still they know exactly what you mean, and secondly because politics are acceleration rather than velocity - applying energy to push, rather than drifting in a direction.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#225

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:19 AM UTC

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #177

pjc50 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminder that the UK did have to abolish (and reconstitute) a police force in order to end its civil war in 2001, and still has ongoing litigation about the legality of troops shooting civilians in the streets.

That has absolutely nothing to do with modern "abolish the police" rhetoric. "Abolish the police" is a utopian Marxist fantasy that holds that in some hypothetical perfected society we won't need police because everyone will just get along, and that the only reason we currently "need" police is because capitalism/patriarchy/white supremacy/imperialism drive people to commit crime and violence, therefore all we have t…

Upthread: "why won't people treat each other's political reviews with respect in the workplace"

This comment: "insane, dangerous garbage and it should not be tolerated"

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#226

Post by evgen » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:20 AM UTC

read_if_gay_ wrote: post #135

evgen wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The response may have to do with the phrase 'virtue signaling', which is one commonly used by fragile white boys to indicate that someone who objects to certain behavior or will no longer tolerate a certain activity is only doing so because they are seeking approval for this public demonstration and that the belief is not sincerely held. The other alternative is that the person objecting actually believes the behavio…

> the assumption that 'viewpoint diversity' is either valuable or worth cultivating on all subjects, this is not true. Ah yes. It shouldn’t even be legal for people to question your viewpoint. Because when has discussion ever been a valuable thing? Or when has a political fashion ever turned out to be sorely wrong, and new viewpoints were needed? Wait, I remember a few times - but I’m sure that this time is going to…

> Ah yes. It shouldn’t even be legal for people to question your viewpoint. Because when has discussion ever been a valuable thing?

Sometimes discussion serves no value. I will not bother to discuss racial theories with a member of the Proud Boys or KKK because the discussion is a waste of time. No one has made any claim regarding legality here, so you are free to question any viewpoint and should be prepared to face the consequences in exactly the same manner that the people you are objecting to once faced consequences for questioning your conventional viewpoint. This sort of a discussion and questioning of viewpoints is exactly what is happening here, but one side is losing an argument that they assumed was not up for debate so they try to work the refs. Doesn't matter, but it is fun to watch.

> Also, “fragile white boys”?

I have never seen _anyone_ other than a frightened white male use the term 'virtue signalling' without trying to be ironic, so if the shoe fits...

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#227

Post by visarga » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

visarga wrote: post #78

whoknowswhat11 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

racism = judging people / taking actions based on race. Reality in many workplaces is that the racists making decisions based on race are on the left these days - not the right. When you say exclude folks who practice racism you need to be very careful. I've no problem with affirmative action, but running around saying folks making judgements based on race should be excluded from the workplace will do a LOT of harm t…

Fixed that for you: > racism = judging people / taking actions based on race, but only if you are white It goes even further than that - anything that supports the dominant class - technology, science, logic, math and even common sense concepts in language - are considered racist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5uXpwoq0_M

2 + 2 = 5, a great clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHAuGA7gqFU

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#228

Post by efaref » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #205

arka2147483647 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Above I said: > Meaning that, Yes, you do have the right of free speach, but No, you should not be saying the wrong things. I would argue, that you do disagree with what I said. You are just providing reasons why it is acceptable for why you should not be saying the wrong things.

You can say as many wrong things as you want, but you cannot expect that there will be no consequences. Those consequences range from people not wishing to associate with you anymore at the mildest end, to actual fines and jail time, if your speech can be proven to have directly incited violence (the bar for which various according to country and jurisdiction). You can't just claim that "I have no control over these…

If freedom of speech is so limited, does it even exist as a freedom anymore?

You could say I have the "freedom to take anything I want" except I mustn't take anything that belongs to somebody else. Do I really have any freedom with that restriction in place?

Personally I don't think we have freedom of speech (in the UK, certainly legally we do not). You have to be careful of what you say and who you say it to. Maybe that's OK, and free speech was a failed experiment. But to claim we have that freedom whilst restricting it thus is just wankery.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#229

Post by concordDance » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:21 AM UTC

samvher wrote: post #137

I might be one of these progressive activists, and this is interesting to read and reflect on. I am quite vocal about culture, hiring, compensation etc, though I would definitely not say that I feel "confident being vocal" - it actually feels very exposed and quite vulnerable (in part because others don't necessarily share their own views). The reason I'm still vocal about it is that I care, I would feel much more sa…

As someone who is very much not one of the 13%, I'm curious: how would you react to objections and disagreement on those issues?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#230

Post by eyko » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:22 AM UTC

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #195

yerwhat01010 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even correcting people who are clearly misinformed on clear matters of fact can cause offense. This is so true. I've seen polling showing that large numbers of people believe that the number of unarmed black men fatally shot by American police every year is in the "thousands" or even "tens of thousands". And the further to the left the media people consume, the higher they're likely to believe the number is. The ac…

I upvoted you because I don't think you should be downvoted for expressing your opinion. But I also think we should wonder: how many white armed men were killed?

The number of white armed men shot by police in 2019 was, according to the Washington Post database[1], between 388 and 398. The number of white unarmed men shot by police in 2019 was 26.

According to this source, the number of black unarmed men shot by police in 2019 was not 13, but 12. The number of armed black men shot by police was 240, possibly 241.

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...