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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#421

Post by kittiepryde »

parasubvert wrote: post #115
edrxty wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people need more functionality than iOS and its associated apps provide to do their jobs (ie embedded development/testing) among other things. Sure, "just go to Android/whatever" but Apple is quickly gaining a monopoly on not-shitty hardware and the combination of these two things is not ok by any stretch of the imagination. Apple could provide the option of unlocking the bootloader and providing some driver cod…

“ Some people need more functionality than iOS and its associated apps provide to do their jobs (ie embedded development/testing) among other things. ” The open PC market is doing really well these days. Like, there’s a huge silicon shortage. “Apple has a monopoly on not shitty hardware” I have to chuckle. It’s almost like we want Apple to become a utility that must by government fiat build this great hardware but we…

“Apple has a monopoly on not shitty hardware”

I had a chuckle at that too, I've seen a lot of monopoly arguments devolve into, [x] is too good, [y] can not compete with a similar but lower quality offering, this is anti competitive.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#422

Post by Redoubts »

amelius wrote: post #417
Redoubts wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but that’s what Android is for. I have absolutely no faith that developers won’t pick the easiest, cheapest, least restrictive distribution channel available. And I have every inclination they will sacrifice every user desire for privacy and integrity to get there.

Yet I have no such problems on Linux.

Glad we’ve entered the year of the Linux desktop.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#423

Post by gonehome »

simion314 wrote: post #254
havernator wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple can no longer force vendors who want access to iOS to play by the rules that I want them to be forced to play by, is the main risk of adding more stores. I bought iOS devices in part for the effects of that leverage—I chose that. It's also a choice.

Sure, but can you take a short pause and parse what you say: "I personally love it how Apple is taking my freedom, I love it so much that I want to force Apple rules on everyone else." The fact you like current Apple rules and you got scared by some FUD should not make you entitled to ask other to stop fighting for more freedom(my family have Android phones and they did not installed any other store, side loaded apps…

You're missing the core value. It's not hacks, it's policy.

Apple leverages their power against app devs and for their customers.

- IAP, Apple ID, No Tracking, Notification Control, etc.

In a world where Apple doesn't have leverage via the store they can't enforce these things. App devs would ship outside of the store and include whatever crap they wanted. This is a worse experience and there is no 'choice' available for the users to pick a better one.

Apple is effectively acting as a legislator here, improving the quality of apps via their leverage in the interest of their users. It's a standard I'm willing to pay extra for and enforces good standards around privacy. The government law makers are largely owned by regulatory capture and lack of technical ability - why would we destroy the ability for one company that actually has incentives aligned with their users to enforce standards?

If Apple loses that leverage we lose that high quality option - you can't have it both ways because the leverage is what allows the incentive control.

People that don't care about it should use Android.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#424

Post by emteycz »

devwastaken wrote: post #407
emteycz wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should be able to freely choose a walled garden. There are benefits that might be important for the person choosing it, and other people can simply choose another platform. I don't see any reason why a single platform should be forced to cater to any and all.

Not when theres only 2 choices, and effectively only 1 choice depending on your work. The rights of wider market and it's consumers involved are higher. This is precedent that's been set time and again in every other consumer facing industry and it applies just as well here.

Yes, even when there are only 2 choices. No customer has any right, legal or otherwise, for iPhone-the-universal-and-open-computing-device. Not only that, most customers are customers because it's a walled garden. What are you going to say to a company after it loses customers and revenue and its expenses rise because you took away what made it unique? "Sorry, that's how the system works?", I guess?

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#425

Post by Humdeee »

gonehome wrote: post #419
Humdeee wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is already way off topic to my post I'm wondering if I'm the right person you replied to. Let's stay focused on this, because I agree with most of your points in this thread. Apple makes money off the sale of their iPhone from the user, with Spotify's existence here being completely irrelevant. Should Spotify be granted increased monetary entitlement to their app creation because of this physical material sale b…

I'd argue your question is a warped framing that confuses the issue in an attempt to be leading. iPhone sale to user is irrelevant. Apple forces distribution via their store and they force companies to pay a cut. I think this is bad, but at least it's across all people that participate in the store. Then Apple itself enters the market via the store selling the same product at the same price, but without the tax. That…

> iPhone sale to user is irrelevant.

Thank you. I agree. The iPhone sale to the user is irrelevant to Spotify's return.

The rest of the post is yelling at a cloud. I have not given my position on any of that so I have no clue to whom you are arguing with.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#426

Post by gonehome »

havernator wrote: post #125
edrxty wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can both have our cake and eat it too, we just need either an unlocked bootloader, or the ability to sideload apps over an ADB-like usb interface. People who don't want that functionality will never know it's there and there won't be any decrease in security.

Unlocked boot loader would be fine. Sideloading's fine as long as the UI's bad enough that normal people can't, say, click a link on a website and keep clicking "OK" until the app's installed on their phone, and it also can't (somehow? Not sure how this restriction would be enforced) be scripted into a desktop-based store (as ADB could be, and likely would have been if alternative stores couldn't just be installed di…

It probably reduces security - if your phone gets taken by a government to be analyzed.

Authoritarian governments would probably require side loaded apps.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#427

Post by gonehome »

shawnz wrote: post #412
leadingthenet wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there’s a reason for that. You’re making the mistake of thinking Apple’s special sauce is the hardware. It’s not. It’s the experience.

I don't think they were making any kind of claim about Apple's "special sauce", only that Apple has a monopoly on high-end hardware, which is true.

It is a little weird though.

- Apple has built a world wide empire selling these products in this way people seem to like

- As a result Apple has funneled that money and made world class hardware that's better than everyone else and leads in security/privacy

- Therefore we should force them to break their model because the others that didn't follow suit have hardware that sucks

That's not the most charitable interpretation, but there's some truth to it.

There’s some extra irony that the others in this case fuck over their users by leveraging their data to target ads.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#428

Post by EricE »

Can you have third-party Android app stores and access to all of Google services that have the same level of ease of access?

Nope. If adding a third party app store was so easy Epic wouldn't be suing Google the same as they are suing Apple.

I used to be a staunch supporter of Apple and Google as gatekeepers of their own respective ecosystems but the more I watch them botch the management of those ecosystems (from not stopping malware as promised, automation banning valid apps with days/weeks/months before resolution/restoration, app banning for political reasons that are questionable, etc) it's clear that an open marketplace is still the best solution.

Time to level the playing field and update antitrust laws to account for more modern times.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#429

Post by gonehome »

echelon wrote: post #408
gonehome wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t totally agree with your analogy framing. My take: Car company requires third party manufacturers to adhere to its quality standards and pass review before being installed. The car company installs all of the third party parts for you and distributes them globally, handling payment, they charge 30% (or 15%) to the third party for this. If you refuse to adhere to their quality standards they refuse to install y…

That is not right at all! The world should not work like that. Your car, your choice. You want to install an aftermarket supercharger and fish fins? Your prerogative. Toyota and Apple have no right to tell you what to do.

Then you can buy a different car from the other company that doesn't have this policy.

You can even still hack the fins on your car despite the policy, but it might be difficult to do yourself and it'll void your warranty.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#430

Post by EricE »

encryptluks2 wrote: post #23

You can have third-party Android app stores. Can you say the same about Apple? While I agree that Google has market-dominance, they are not anti-competition or anti-consumer in the same sense as Apple. Android is open source, Chrome OS is open source, etc. Google is actually providing and contributing something back to the community. Apple intentionally locks people to specific hardware and to their app store.

If third-party app stores with Google's version of Android (you know, the one everyone wants that has all the Google applications - not the open source version that you can't legally load Google's stuff on) were on an equal footing than why is Epic suing them the same as they are suing Apple?
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