Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech • Hacker News Board

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#241

Post by dragonwriter » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #218

dragonwriter wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The spread in software ability is so much larger that the -1σ candidates (the least-effective ~15% of people who have ever worked in computer programming jobs) are worth trying to select against in a way the least effective ~15% of nurses probably are not. This isn’t an argument against credentialling since it is literally the direct effect of not having credentialling in software. Credentialing cuts most-to-all of…

You make a good point about an idealized credentialing mechanism cutting off the left tail of the distribution, but the spread in performance will still be much higher in credential-holding SWE than nursing and, because of the high leverage, still worth selecting for. You can only be so much better at nursing than the average qualified nurse. How many more patients will the best nurse save? You can be several multipl…

> You can only be so much better at nursing than the average qualified nurse

I...disagree rather strongly that this, to the extent it is true, differentiates SWE from nursing. Comparing workers with identical responsibilities, the same is true in SWE, in both cases there are large impact multiples possible within the field, but they come from roles with greater responsibility; in nursing, because different roles require different credentials, this is reflected in the fact that a more competent nurse will be more likely to take on a more responsible role within the same credentialed category, and also be more likely to acquire greater credentials over time compared to a less competent nurse. “Nursing” isn’t a binary credential, but a whole set, starting with a basically heirarchical set: CNA -> LVN/LPN -> RN and beyond that various Advanced Practice Nursing credentials.

SWEs likewise have wide variety of scopes of practice and responsibility, but because we have no structure in the profession, they are assigned ad hoc and even with common titles there isn’t consistency in substantive roles, skills, or qualification. But, again, that’s a product of the absence of structure and credentialling, not an argument for it.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#242

Post by sokoloff » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:18 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #241

sokoloff wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point about an idealized credentialing mechanism cutting off the left tail of the distribution, but the spread in performance will still be much higher in credential-holding SWE than nursing and, because of the high leverage, still worth selecting for. You can only be so much better at nursing than the average qualified nurse. How many more patients will the best nurse save? You can be several multipl…

> You can only be so much better at nursing than the average qualified nurse I...disagree rather strongly that this, to the extent it is true, differentiates SWE from nursing. Comparing workers with identical responsibilities, the same is true in SWE, in both cases there are large impact multiples possible within the field, but they come from roles with greater responsibility; in nursing, because different roles requ…

Whatever the entry-level credential is, SWEs as a set will have a spread of productivity/capability that’s wider than the entry-level nurse.

Whatever the highest-level credential is, SWEs will have a spread that’s wider than the highest-level nursing credential (and likely wider than the ratio in the entry-level SWE range as well).

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#243

Post by ingleswood » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

pedrosorio wrote: post #237

ingleswood wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the existence in a more realistic hiring process of a huge weight of objective and reasonable criteria an unjustified, unlikely and politically subjective assumption? Given that one small element of interview presentation has been shown to involve irrational bias, perhaps it's more reasonable to assume that most others also involve unconscious or explained-away bias? So perhaps hiring decisions are influenced 0…

> Given that one small element of interview presentation has been shown to involve irrational bias No such thing was shown in this study. The study makes no attempt to measure E(skills | social class). For all we know, the hiring managers provided an unbiased (i.e. the opposite of "irrational bias") estimate of the expected skills conditioned on the social class of the applicant, absent any other information.

Interesting that you are claiming both that people making hiring decisions are not biased along class lines and that any such bias would be rational and based on ability.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#244

Post by ingleswood » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

KMag wrote: post #233

ingleswood wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another perspective is that a lot of bias isn't "I don't like X people", but rather "I feel X people are disproportionately Y, and I don't like Y" Of course. But the answer to this depends on: 1. the source of the belief that 'X people tend to be Y'. 2. The truth or otherwise of that belief. 3. The source of the dislike of Y. 4. Whether or not Y is a reasonable cause for dislike. Suppose that I tell you that the mo…

Sure, but we usually group these sorts of disagreements as axiomatic disagreements, not bias. Maybe I'm grossly naive, but I doubt that percentage wise there are many hiring managers who hold racial superiority as axiomatic. My understanding is that hiring bias usually boils down to assumptions about aggregate intelligence, trustworthiness, and/or work ethic of groups of people. If someone thinks Swedes just aren't t…

This is far too simplistic. There are well studied phenomena by which people apply bias along the following lines (an arbitrary example chosen):

1. I believe a stereotype that Swedish people are more friendly than Scottish people. 2. I know this person is Swedish, so I will tend to judge their behavior as generally friendly when I would interpret the same behavior by a Scottish person as less friendly. 3. I tend to assume that Scottish people do better in this job than Swedish people, perhaps because I've seen more Scots and fewer Swedes succeed in the past. 4. I therefore believe that success in this job is anti-correlated with friendliness. 5. The person in front of me would perform poorly in this role - not because he is Swedish, but because he is too friendly.

Note that although in practise, I might reject a Swede and accept a Scot (who is exactly as qualified and exactly as friendly) for the same job, I don't have any dislike of Swedish people, nor do I seek to avoid hiring them. In fact I might personally prefer Swedes to Scots (because they are so friendly) and seek out their company, yet still behave as above! That's literally the meaning of unconscious in unconscious bias.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#245

Post by ingleswood » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

flavius29663 wrote: post #85

lucian1900 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black peoples in the US are far more likely to be summarily executed when interacting with police.

not when accounting for a higher level of crime. In fact, whites are more than half of police victims, while causing way less than half of violent crimes. There are 32 million traffic stops each year. In 2019 the police shot 14 unarmed black Americans. I think every death is unforgivable, but let's not pretend that going to work and back as a black person you're putting your life at risk when meeting the police. Ther…

So if the police escalate a situation and shoot someone who is not a violent criminal, because he is black and therefore more likely (from the police officer's point of view) to be a violent criminal than a white person in the same situation, that's the system working as designed?

Do you understand that this is exactly what people who say 'the police are racist' mean when they say it?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#246

Post by ingleswood » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

kodah wrote: post #238

ingleswood wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading the thread shows a very different story to the one in the GGP. Another poster describes the Capitol riot as a "day-out for rednecks". You say "there aren't many rednecks in San Diego" and the other poster replies to say that they believe there are a lot of 'rural conservatives' around San Diego. Then you accuse them of using a slur, although it's not really clear if you are rebuking him for calling Capitol ri…

A redneck is usually a white, working class person of meager means. This is how I've known the term growing up. What the commenter I originally replied to was doing was using the term to refer to white people, any white person. When I pointed out that a good portion of the people in the article are from San Diego (I followed a doxxing thread on Reddit during this, nearly all of these people were business owners or pe…

I mean I agree with you that it was wrong to use the word 'rednecks' to refer to people protesting at the Capitol. However this doesn't seem at all to be an example of what the other poster claimed, of people who loudly object to racial slurs and yet 'mock rednecks and Wal-mart shoppers'?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#247

Post by paperwasp42 » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

seany wrote: post #100

paperwasp42 wrote: post #97

A good friend of mine works a logistical analysis job that involves dealing with a lot of warehouses and warehouse workers. There is a saying in the offices of his company that goes: "Get your head out of the warehouse!" This is a play on the popular "Get your head out of the gutter" and is jokingly used in the offices when people say something considered lewd/offensive. This company brags about its major focus on "d…

This hits really hard for people that are 20y +, Dir or VP level people... but they really get along mostly with the oilfield guys on the weekend. You almost just have to turn off your personality.

My friend falls into this category, which is why the snobby culture hits him so hard. Those ladies and gents in the warehouse are his people, and he loves his community deeply, despite its economic issues. But he also has a family to support, so waging a war against the office culture really just isn't a choice.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#248

Post by emodendroket » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:08 PM UTC

pedrosorio wrote: post #239

emodendroket wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As shopworn as the term is, this is what is meant by "institutional racism." Racist sentiment is not necessary for people to behave in what is ultimately a racist way. I would also challenge your notion. It is true that wealth is correlated with educational achievement. But educational achievement will not, in itself, lead to someone speaking in a way that is more patrician. Is it the kind of society we want to creat…

> Is it the kind of society we want to create where you are essentially "locked in" to your parents' social position? No, that is why interviews should look more like the ones Google performs and less like "please describe yourself, hobbies and life experiences"

Yes, I agree. For all the complaints, I think it is a much fairer system than the alternative.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#249

Post by anigbrowl » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

zpeti wrote: post #207

snypher wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because one should have the freedom to continue about their day without being detained for no reason. Can you support your claim? In my city people who have outstanding warrants (arguably having met a standard of having committed a crime) are regularly released after being stopped by police. It seems to me that being stopped by the police doesn't result in the detention of people actually charged with crimes - so why…

In my city (non US), the police block a bridge over the river, stop everyone, and check the levels of alcohol in their breath. I don't make a fuss about it, because it probably keeps me safer as a lot of idiots won't drink and drive because of this being done regularly. Deal with it. The police stopping you is not them thinking you are a criminal necessarily.

stop everyone

That's a very different situation which is obviously non-discriminatory. But consider how you'd feel if they just stopped some and waved others through, don't you see the potential for unfairness?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#250

Post by sahila » Wed, Apr 28, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #147

sahila wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find interesting in all your examples is it feels the cause for issues are power imbalances and racism. The people calling the cops are likely the white neighbors on their black neighbors and not the other way around. In your nextdoor example, it's not just "bored housewives", it's "white bored housewives". I don't suppose you feel that black bored housewives are also posting those messages.

Correct. Did you need that validated or I am missing the point of your post….? Not sure how to respond, you know that we are agreeing, like 100%?

No response needed, but I think it's interesting that you (and others) use safe language to describe the perpetrators, like "nobody" and "nextdoor groups", when really it's just other white people.