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Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

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Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#221
post #34

Doesn't suprise me. My wife is from a rural town in NC, and was told by her high school teachers that she needed to lose her southern accent if she wanted to be taken seriously in college. When she was working on or master's degree in Maryland, a writing professor commented "you speak and write so well, I never would have guessed you're from the south". That kind of discrimination is very prevalent in academia and me…

I've had the same experience.

I grew up in Staten Island, the son of a couple of Brooklyn Italians. As a kid I had what I now hear as a comically heavy Brooklyn accent.

As a middle-middle class kid surrounded by other kids like me, I considered my accent normal. As I got older and was exposed to people from outside our little bubble, I began to notice their reactions to my accent, which were always in jest but affected me just the same.

Hearing their jokes and their own accents, I began associate the 'standard' American accent with upperclassness, which I wanted to achieve. So I consciously worked on my accent over a number of years. By the end of high school, my R's were nearly properly rounded. By the end of college, my accent had almost completely gone. Today, it is 100% gone. I speak like a journalist from Ohio, except with more swearing.

In many ways, I miss the accent. I feel like an outsider wherever I am, whether it's at work (where I feel like I'm playing a part to fit in) or at a deli, buying a mortadella sandwich, where it feels like returning to a place I've left. But 'fixing' the accent has undoubtedly made it easier for me to advance my career.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#222
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would certainly want to see proof before I accepted it was true. And even if it were true, we might find it socially undesirable for people to act on (it's "objectively true" that hiring disabled people costs an employer money too). I have previously seen a similar study to this one where landlords were able to determine a prospective tenant's race in brief phone conversations and were less willing to rent to minor…

Few challenge that the children of highly educated parents have higher academic achievement. As highly educated parents is strongly correlated with upper class. This is enough to make it quite likely that someone from an upper class background will be the better candidate in expectation, even if the only information you get is the socioeconomic background. We can quibble over details, but the more you dig into this t…

As shopworn as the term is, this is what is meant by "institutional racism." Racist sentiment is not necessary for people to behave in what is ultimately a racist way.

I would also challenge your notion. It is true that wealth is correlated with educational achievement. But educational achievement will not, in itself, lead to someone speaking in a way that is more patrician. Is it the kind of society we want to create where you are essentially "locked in" to your parents' social position? It may even be the case that, assuming two people with the same education, the person from a lower class background is more likely to be exceptional.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#223
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the point taken from the study is really designed to stoke tension when it is not really reflective of anything meaningful when it comes to job applicant filtering. It reminds me of a learning from one of Thomas Sowell's books. There were communities that thought that background checks for employees in certain industries were racially discriminating by their very nature. They moved to ban them. Race disparities…

> ... Please. You're not getting that software engineering job by being an artist with no prior experience who flashes high-class speech for 10 seconds... You make it sound like that kind of thing is impossible. It's NOT. Class signals, in many cases, are absolutely critical to landing a job. You give an example of "an artist with no experience" grifting into a SW engineering job-- that's a bit extreme. What is commo…

It's been well known for a very long time that for some the education you receive at Yale or Harvard is more about how to be a member of that class, to learn the manners, speech, and dress, that will win you the job at companies playing by those rules. The "Gentleman's C" you earn is less consequential.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a hypothetical explanation for why, if people are only allowed to evaluate speech and accent, they prefer a certain group, but if allowed to evaluate lots of different more meaningful things, which all lead to the same conclusion about competence EXCEPT for speech and accent , that preference no longer applies? That seems like an extraordinary claim unless you have some evidentiary base for it.

Sure, it's very credible that a general tendency will remain if other sources of information are available. The unresolved question is what weight is assigned to each preference. If a hiring decision is influenced to 0.01% by speech and accent and 99.99% by whatever you deem reasonable criteria, then what do you learn from filtering out the latter? And of course, decisions like this need not have linear behavior in r…

Isn't the existence in a more realistic hiring process of a huge weight of objective and reasonable criteria an unjustified, unlikely and politically subjective assumption?

Given that one small element of interview presentation has been shown to involve irrational bias, perhaps it's more reasonable to assume that most others also involve unconscious or explained-away bias? So perhaps hiring decisions are influenced 0.01% by speech and accent, 64.99% by other class, race and gender markers, and 35% by reasonable criteria such as competence? Why wouldn't this be your base case assumption?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#225
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The solution was to allow background checks again. I'm not sure this learning shows what you think it does, nor that the 'solution' is really a solution. Employers don't want to hire black people because they fear they might be criminals, and background checks allay this fear, allowing them to hire a subset of black people they feel are ok? To me this confirms that both background checks and hiring managers have a…

Another perspective is that a lot of bias isn't "I don't like X people", but rather "I feel X people are disproportionately Y, and I don't like Y". Objective data that this X person isn't Y seems like a good way to (1) reduce the harm of the bias in the short term and (2) hopefully diminish the bias over time, given enough objective data to fix their biased priors via observation. If fixing people's biases via object…

> Another perspective is that a lot of bias isn't "I don't like X people", but rather "I feel X people are disproportionately Y, and I don't like Y"

Of course. But the answer to this depends on: 1. the source of the belief that 'X people tend to be Y'. 2. The truth or otherwise of that belief. 3. The source of the dislike of Y. 4. Whether or not Y is a reasonable cause for dislike.

Suppose that I tell you that the most important political issue for me is the welfare of animals, and in particular, that animals raised for meat should be stunned before they are slaughtered. There are definitely some people for which this is a genuinely held and rationally arrived at belief, consistent with their other beliefs and actions. There are others for which this is a device for attacking certain religious communities, through opposition to halal and shechita. Isn't it correct that we should try and understand which is taking place before responding to it?

Presenting objective data to someone arguing an irrational position in bad faith does no good - the bad faith argument simply adapts.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erasing your regional accent probably goes a long way. I have a pretty strong Maine accent and it’s hard to suppress. I don’t think I could fake a true bourgeoisie affect though, partly because I find it so repulsive. But also I think you have to have had grown adults as your personal servants as I a child to really nail that sort of bored/unconcerned affect. Where you truly consider certain people to be beneath you.…

Sending out an HN bat signal here: I can't find the article/post that this comment reminded me of but it was a semi-recent discussion/breakdown of class in the USA. All I remember is that it called out Jeff Bezos as upper middle class.

I guess I should also say that from a theoretical perspective your class is all about how you get your money: if it comes from work, then you’re working class, if it comes from ownership of property, then you’re ruling class/bourgeoisie.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't my argument, but as I try to understand all sides I'll do my best to explain the position anyway. The idea goes something like this. You have white privilege because you are visibly white. By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white. The belief is that the system, being largely run by white people will extend courtesy and nicer treatment to those who look like it…

`By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white.` Thought experiment. Two crazy looking homeless people approach you yelling. They are dirty in ripped clothes and look to be high on strong drugs. One is black, one is white. Do you feel better about, or differentiate the white person because he is "your people"?

That isn't a good thought experiment.

Unconscious biases are likely to have much more effect in ambiguous situations where it's harder to try to understand someone's motivations or how to react, than in a situation where those things are clear. Their absence in the latter does not imply their absence in the former.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure you can. You're less likely to be pulled over in most of the US than a black person driving the same car and wearing the same clothes.

I was stopped too by police and one time briefly searched, so what? Being stopped by the police is not a game changer. If you haven't done anything wrong you'll walk away and go to work and back home. Why is being stopped by police such a big deal? I think the police should do more of that in the US, it would reduce crime considerably.

Have you ever been shot and killed by the police?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, except > 99% correlation to racial discrimination suggests that other races do not occupy the lower classes in any significant numbers compared to Blacks. I'd say 40ish %, which is still very high.

I never said that, the article never said that, nobody ever said that except you. Giving the benefit of the doubt here: I think you are thinking about a specific form of discrimination, which some people of some heritage overcome.

Me saying that you suggested something means I understand you did not literally say it.
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