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Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

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Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#51

I think US-bias is more so class bias than race bias and this comes with a 99% correlation to racial discrimination due to the half millenium of directly ensuring certain races could not access the economy or capital or literacy. Racial discrimination also occurs. A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority power who exper…

as a white that grew up very very poor, I can't possibly understand why so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege, when most of them had many more resources growing up.

Sure you can. You're less likely to be pulled over in most of the US than a black person driving the same car and wearing the same clothes.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#52
post #7

I've always wondered with things like this, could it be possible to make all interaction "text-based" until final stage? Specifically for hiring: What if applicants submitted resumes, but the name and school they attended are replaced with numbers. Then throughout the interview process all interactions were text-based and they were addressed by this number. Then offer/acceptance is based on merit (hopefully) and not…

I wonder if there are socioeconomic indicators in writing style, too. I wouldn't be surprised if there were, even if we consider only text in which grammar and spelling are correct. (As a small example, there are ways to sound more or less like a mathematician, even when writing about topics unrelated to math.)

Of course there are. They're easier to pick out in informal writing, of course, but even, "is capable of writing extensively in SWE without screwing up or revealing lower-class status through choice of word or idiom" is a pretty strong class marker. One can even infer gender with much better-than-even odds, though, again, it's easier the less-formal the writing. There exist computer programs that attempt that trick with fair success, too, though humans are plenty capable of it on their own.

As for your example of mathematicians, and to offer a sense of how easy it can be to accidentally and innocently give these things away, something as simple as preposition use can give away a mathematician (or at least someone who's had some exposure to mathematical writing and usage). Consider: "over", and "in", for example, and also seemingly-innocent usage like the transitive verb "having", in a revealing context.

See the commas after the closing quotation marks, in that second paragraph? If I'm American, and not obviously-deficient in the rest of my writing, that's a fairly reliable signal that I'm a programmer.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#53

I think US-bias is more so class bias than race bias and this comes with a 99% correlation to racial discrimination due to the half millenium of directly ensuring certain races could not access the economy or capital or literacy. Racial discrimination also occurs. A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority power who exper…

as a white that grew up very very poor, I can't possibly understand why so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege, when most of them had many more resources growing up.

It isn't my argument, but as I try to understand all sides I'll do my best to explain the position anyway.

The idea goes something like this. You have white privilege because you are visibly white. By being visibly white you gain an automatic differentiation from those who are non-white. The belief is that the system, being largely run by white people will extend courtesy and nicer treatment to those who look like it whilst those who differ in appearance must "earn" the position you are given by the elements of your birth. It's a bit more complicated than that but that's my understanding of the core of it.

I am not trying to strawman the argument and if I have it wrong, please explain where I wandered off course.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#54
post #4

It would be nice to get a transcript so we could identify what speech was declared to be lower socioeconomic speech. It's important to be able to speak and write proper English for a job interview, even though most speak in an informal English most of the time.

Erasing your regional accent probably goes a long way. I have a pretty strong Maine accent and it’s hard to suppress. I don’t think I could fake a true bourgeoisie affect though, partly because I find it so repulsive. But also I think you have to have had grown adults as your personal servants as I a child to really nail that sort of bored/unconcerned affect. Where you truly consider certain people to be beneath you.…

Sending out an HN bat signal here:

I can't find the article/post that this comment reminded me of but it was a semi-recent discussion/breakdown of class in the USA.

All I remember is that it called out Jeff Bezos as upper middle class.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Practically all US regional accents, especially if thick, register as "lower" than Standard American English spoken with a generic or newscaster accent.

There is no Standard US English accent. Even people from the US Pacific Northwest speak with an accent. Interestingly, there are AI apps to make your English accent [1] more mainstream, but the fact is that judging a person by their accent is xenophobic. Anyways, I practice my pronunciation for a foreign language using speech recognition software/apps. [1] Class Is in Session: AI App Schools on English Pronunciation:…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American_English

Also called "Standard American English" (as noted in the article). It's what you mostly hear on the radio, in film actors when they're acting but not "doing an accent", among professional newscasters, et c. It's not been static through time—ever watch early talkies or listen to '30s radio serials?—but it exists.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#58
Is class stereotype bias accurate? I don't know. But if so then the optimal amount of actual bias may be nonzero. So does the study show the right amount of bias, too little, or too much?

It wouldn't be easy to measure the correlation between classes and employee performance, but not impossible either. Lacking such data it's hard to know how to interpret such results.

Of course any such bias should be deeply discounted by any actual personal data you can gather. Any group-based bias should be considered trivial in comparison. But this study is designed to only consider class signals.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#59
Where is Professor Higgins when we need him?

    Henry Higgins: 

    Look at her, a prisoner of the gutter,
    Condemned by every syllable she utters
    By right she should be taken out and hung,
    For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue.

    Eliza Doolittle: Aaoooww!

    Henry (imitating her): Aaoooww!
    Heavens! What a sound!
    This is what the British population,
    Calls an elementary education.

    Pickering: Oh Come sir, I think you picked a poor example.

    Henry: Did I?
    Hear them down in Soho Square,
    Dropping "h's" everywhere.
    Speaking English anyway they like.
    You sir, did you go to school?
   
    Man: Wadaya tike me for, a fool?

    Henry: No one taught him 'take' instead of 'tike!
    Hear a Yorkshireman, or worse, hear a Cornishman converse.
    I'd rather hear a choir singing flat.
    Chickens, cackling in a barn, just like this one (pointing to Eliza)

    Eliza: Gaaarn

    Henry (writing, imitating Eliza): Gaaarn..

    I ask you Sir, what sort of word is that? (to Pickering)

    It's "aoow" and "gaarn" that keep her in her place
    Not her wretched clothes and dirty face
    Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
    This verbal class distinction, by now,
    Should be antique. If you spoke as she does, sir,
    Instead of the way you do,
    Why, you might be selling flowers, too!

    Henry: An Englishman's way of speaking absolutely classifies him,
    The moment he talks he makes some other
    Englishman despise him.
    One common language I'm afraid we'll never get.
    Oh, why can't the English learn to
    set a good example to people whose
    English is painful to your ears?
    The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears.
    There even are places where English completely disappears.
    Well, in America, they haven't used it for years!
    Why can't the English teach their children how to speak?
    Norwegians learn Norwegian; the Greeks have taught their Greek. 
    In France every Frenchman knows his language from "A" to "Zed"
    The French never care what they do, actually,
    as long as they pronounce it properly.
    Arabians learn Arabian with the speed of summer lightning.
    And Hebrews learn it backwards,
    which is absolutely frightening.
    Use proper English you're regarded as a freak.
    Why can't the English,
    Why can't the English learn to speak?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#60
post #59

Where is Professor Higgins when we need him? Henry Higgins: Look at her, a prisoner of the gutter, Condemned by every syllable she utters By right she should be taken out and hung, For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue. Eliza Doolittle: Aaoooww! Henry (imitating her): Aaoooww! Heavens! What a sound! This is what the British population, Calls an elementary education. Pickering: Oh Come sir, I think you pic…

Such a great play / movie. I sometimes sing Hymn to Him just to get a nasty look out of my wife.
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