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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

accc.gov.au

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#241

Post by BelenusMordred »

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #163
thombles wrote: post #120

Incidentally, if you have a business registered for GST in Australia you have to submit a quarterly activity statement. The tax office website had bizarre authentication requirements but the browser plugin was at least cross-platform. They now require you to use the myGovID app, which is - you guessed it - available only on the App Store and Play Store. You can't even run a business without being part of the duopoly.…

As per that site, you can still deal directly with the govt and avoid MyGovID.

As an Australian overseas I can guarantee you that it is nigh impossible to have dealings with most federal agencies without using that app.

It's one of the few closed source apps I have on my phone and forces me to install a workaround like yalp in order to get it. (playstore requires a google login to use)

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#242

Post by gonehome »

shawnz wrote: post #238
gonehome wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens when they start leveraging their power to hurt their customers rather than to benefit them? That’s when they’re actually in violation of monopoly and consumer protection laws. Consumer harm is part of it.

I don't mean a situation like that. What if you just disagree about the best way to achieve the ideal ecosystem? Surely not every customer has the same opinion. Like for example, consider their restrictions on third-party browser engines, JITs, etc. Are you happy about all those choices too?

Ah - I think that's a fair point.

I would have to think about it honestly, I don't know what I think.

It's a little funny because I think someone reading my comments absent context would think I don't care about general purpose computing. I do care about it though, a lot. I think the centralization of communication services behind a few megacorporations is a sad outcome and a lost promise of decentralized communication between users on the net.

The issue I have is the inbetween - in 'the world as it is' at least apple has leverage to stop the shittiest data mining, tracking, email harvesting, call-to-cancel retentions, just general user hostile 'features' on our behalf. If they don't have that leverage, we don't suddenly gain a better environment - we're in the same shitty centralized thin client world, but now it's worse. In the idealized world of decentralized applications or strong data protection legislation I'd be in favor of it, but in our world I think the tradeoffs are serious and its one of the main reasons I buy Apple hardware.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#243

Post by ThatPlayer »

laingc wrote: post #111

Why does half of HN seem intent on ruining the iPhone for the rest of us? The explicit selling proposition of the iPhone is that it is a closed ecosystem . I and my family buy it for precisely this reason. If you want a choice about what you install, you can have it! It's called Android, and hundreds of phone manufacturers are lining up to sell you a compatible handset. Leave us with the one phone manufacturer who ha…

Because at their size, developers cannot ignore them, and Apple is hurting developers by forcing their rules on them. That's what it means to have monopoly power or dominance as this article calls it.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#244

Post by gonehome »

ngokevin wrote: post #237
gonehome wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

It's 15% now for most developers, right?

Not really - it's 15% if you register as a small business and it changes to 30% once you hit $1M in revenue.

That's probably technically 'most', but it's not the large sector that matters.

Also 15% is still quite high.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#245

Post by Barrin92 »

havernator wrote: post #193
Barrin92 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but why exactly do you want other users to be deprived of software choice on iOS? Like how is that enhancing your experience? I get that people want to use Apple only software, in which case I'd understand why they don't want other software on the Apple Store, but how the hell is your experience worse if there is another store available on the phone? Just never use it? It's like as if Microsoft locked down Win…

Apple can no longer force vendors who want access to iOS to play by the rules that I want them to be forced to play by, is the main risk of adding more stores. I bought iOS devices in part for the effects of that leverage—I chose that. It's also a choice.

I understand that's what you want, I want to know why you want that. Apple being able to exercise market power is bad for you, it means that Apple can command higher prices that are being passed on to you. It's like saying you only want Walmart in your neighborhood, because that means Walmart can coerce its vendors. The only one who benefits from this is the platform owner. Competition is good (for you, the consumer, even if you only shop at one store!.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#246

Post by gonehome »

Aunche wrote: post #182
gonehome wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree - Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I like Apple forcing use of in-app-payments, I like Apple giving me subscription control to make canceling easy. I like Apple blocking app tracking and…

>That's obnoxious and anti-competitive, particularly in cases like Spotify where they directly compete and undercut them in the same market. How many Spotify users paid through their App though? I'd imagine it would only be a tiny fraction.

Apple bans app devs from linking to sign up via the browser or even mentioning its existence.

They also started to prevent apps that don't have IAP for subscriptions.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#247

Post by gonehome »

Spivak wrote: post #202
gonehome wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Subscription services like Spotify only pay 30% for the first year of each subscription. After that they pay 15%." That's still pretty extreme imo when you control the only store and you directly compete with them/undercut them. > "Also their hosting of free apps for only a nominal developer registration fee is a huge boon to users and a lot of iOS developers." They charge a fee for it, I wouldn't consider it nomi…

> That's still pretty extreme imo when you control the only store and you directly compete with them/undercut them. Regulators don’t (yet I suppose) care about this because of opportunity cost. If I’m making $3/user/mo off your $10 subscription and I decide to enter the market and compete with you at then every user I steal and every user if not for me would have gone with you costs me $3/mo plus cost of providing th…

If Spotify is $10/month and paying $3 to Apple they get $7/month.

If Apple enters with Apple Music and charges $10/month - they're undercutting Spotify while charging the same.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#248

Post by echelon »

yossarian1408 wrote: post #131
echelon wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple needs the control to have the leverage that makes their ecosystem better. It's in the interest of their customers for them to have this leverage and it requires that their 'store' is the only available store so app devs can't bypass their requirements. I don't understand this argument at all. You're almost certainly taking more risk driving in a car than downloading an app, yet you're probably willing to embr…

You don't have to do business on the App store. You don't have to launch a startup on the App store. You can buy any device you want, and if there isn't currently one sold that meets your specific criterion, society might be better off if someone takes the initiative to meet this demand rather than force a company to roll out the red carpet for it's competition. Your liberty is not at stake here, nor any real detrime…

> You don't have to do business on the App store.

Yes, you do. If you want to reach 50% of Americans, you're forced to build and distribute an app on the App Store.

Try building Netflix without an iOS app.

Try writing a new social media app and not building for iPhone.

Pick any modern vertical without an iPhone app. You just can't do it. Apple is the new AOL for a lot of folks.

You immediately surrender 30% to reach 50% of your customer base, and on top of that, you have to dance to Apple's arbitrary rules and app approval release trains.

1. This is not how technology should work.

2. Apple's fees are extortion.

3. This is using monopolistic advantage to strong arm an entire industry.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#249

Post by simondotau »

fblp wrote: post #227
simondotau wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is okay to propose multiple directions if they benefit consumers and competition. This isn't what they did. They proposed one direction that benefits consumers at the expense of competition[1], and another direction which benefits competition at the expense of the consumer[2]. [1] Calling on Google and Apple to further clamp down on subscription traps and scams; [2] Calling on Google and Apple to give up control o…

In what part of the report do they call on Google and Apple to "give up control over the mechanisms which have allowed them to clamp down on malicious financial activity including some (but not all) subscription traps and scams." ?

The "mechanisms which have allowed them to clamp down on malicious financial activity" are their payment gateways, the rules surrounding their use use, the ability to perform oversight over app payment activity, and the threat (whether actual or perceived) of total banishment if they are caught—particularly in Apple's case where there's no alternative path to customers.

In the same breath, Google and Apple are also being told that these very same mechanisms are a concern to the ACCC.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#250

Post by simondotau »

shawnz wrote: post #166
simondotau wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not Apple's fault if Android devices aren't suitable alternatives.

Of course not. But the limited selection of alternatives certainly adds to the pain of switching platforms. Therefore it's not so simple to "just buy another phone".

I wholeheartedly agree with that. I just find it difficult to blame Apple when the accusation is that the competition sucks.
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