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Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

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Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#171

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

edrxty wrote: post #55
Elidrake24 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

By the same logic we should just eliminate free will because it's dangerous sometimes. I hate these arguments as it is allowing incompetence to drive innovation. There are plenty of other options whereby 3rd party apps/app stores could be installed safely, just like on any other computer system. If you need to give someone with diminished mental faculties a locked down device, that can be made explicit.

It really does read like satire.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#172

Post by encryptluks2 »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #146
havernator wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd care about this a lot less if the government first outlawed most personal data collection & hoarding (by tech companies and others) before we go destroying the libertarian solution to this (outsource regulation to a company, which is what I'm choosing to do, given the alternatives)

It's not really destroying it. You can still refuse to install any apps not approved by Apple, even if other people do. It might even be a good test. If Facebook decides they can't be in Apple's store even though the app is free and there is no government pressure for Apple to block it, you might take pause to ask why and decide that you don't want that app.

That is a really good point that I haven't even thought of before.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#173

Post by _aunn »

can we get apple/google to factory unlock bootloaders too? how about x64 chipset options instead of locking down their phones with arm?

i’m kind-of not kidding, either — more asking. is there precedent for governments being able to force companies to completely open up their systems to whatever the courts define as “competitive?”

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#174

Post by 8note »

havernator wrote: post #114
efraim wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could very easily not install any other store or use any other payment system if you don't want them. You can keep your device 100 % Apple approved even if there exist alternatives. Why take that choice away from others?

It could fragment the Apple software ecosystem. Since a non-fragmented ecosystem is what I want, I don't like that. Add more stores and my choice to buy into a unified platform is at risk.

Your choice to buy into a unified platform does not require it to be Apple's unified platform. You can probably find a windows phone and opt into that unified platform.

What you don't get regardless is an apple that "throws its weight around" to force competitors and the like to do what apple wants. That's abuse and bad for everyone. That you happen to like it doesn't make it legal

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#175

Post by colinmhayes »

mulmen wrote: post #9
ent101 wrote: post #6

I feel like we keep getting these inquiries/lawsuits/press releases every year but, literally, nothing gets any better at all. Every developer KNOWS that Google is extremely abusive towards them solely because of their position in the market yet nothing ever improves. If these are not illegal monopolies, what is?!

Well, the problem is that they aren't monopolies. They may be problematic but we don't have laws or regulations to deal with this specific situation. And when we call it a "monopoly" because that seems to be the closest thing then the defenders of these organizations can say "but it's not a monopoly!" and they are right. So if you think it is problematic to have two players in a market even when they are on equal foo…

They're a duopoly that has effectively formed a cartel to abuse their market power. The market power abuse is the illegal part, doesn't matter how many competitors there are.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#176

Post by hugi »

alfongj wrote: post #82
hugi wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I choose to spend my money on devices from a company that's explicitly and repeatedly stated that their mission is privacy. But if you choose to buy phones from ad companies, it's your decision.

Please point to a single source from Apple claiming their mission is privacy.

For me their actions speak volumes. But if you want sources, here's Craig Federighi, Senior VP of software, literally yesterday:

"It [privacy] is a value that is so deep in us. Personal information can be used and abused and even weaponized in ways that can be really, really destructive. Often in a way that's not at all apparent to the person who might be giving up that information." and "These devices are so intimately a part of our lives and contain so much of what we're thinking and where we've been and who we've been with that users deserve and need control of that information. Abuse ranges from creepy to dangerous".

He says more about privacy in that same interview, recommended listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G05nEgsXgoI

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#177

Post by wluu »

camhart wrote: post #167
wluu wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's AltStore, but it's obviously not as straightforward as the Apple one. https://altstore.io/ Came across it while following the development and distribution of iSH ( https://ish.app/ ), which has now made it into the main app store. Prior to publishing to AltStore, iSH was only available on Test Flight, which has a limitation on the number of users who can join (10,000). So they'd periodically have to kick inac…

AltStore requires a software developer to set it up and use it. Not anywhere close for non-tech people, let alone elderly.

Yeah, I said it's not straightforward.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#178

Post by cglong »

Elidrake24 wrote: post #42
encryptluks2 wrote: post #23

You can have third-party Android app stores. Can you say the same about Apple? While I agree that Google has market-dominance, they are not anti-competition or anti-consumer in the same sense as Apple. Android is open source, Chrome OS is open source, etc. Google is actually providing and contributing something back to the community. Apple intentionally locks people to specific hardware and to their app store.

As a user of iOS, this is precisely why I go with Apple, and why I push my family to do the same. Particularly for the more elderly in my family, Apple's setup (by and large) prevents them from doing anything that would screw themselves over. Removing Apple's control removes my desire to be apart of that ecosystem, and I know that is true for many others outside our insular little community here.

There's always this fear that apps are going to going to become exclusively available via alternative app stores, and yet this has yet to happen on Android. The only app I can think of that's not in Google Play is Fortnite, which, as we know, is to prove a point.

Even Amazon (who pushed heavily on their alternative Appstore a few years back) never removed their own apps from Play.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#179

Post by kgin »

Drew_ wrote: post #37
tmarsden wrote: post #14

It’s a shame we are reliant on (2) app stores. It would be nice if there was a way to safely implement browser plug-ins that would bring some of the functionality offered by native apps. Not sure if WASM/WASI might save the day here eventually, but the path we’re on now is looking pretty grim if the status quo wins out.

Plenty of web APIs that offer native functionality. Apple will not implement them in Safari for obvious reasons. Apple will also not allow non-Safari browsers for the same reason. Apple knows that even simply allowing Web Push on iOS would noticeably eat into their services revenue.

100%. There's no reason why people can run spreadsheets and word processors and vector design apps on their Mac browsers but have to download a 100mb binary app on their iPhones to order pizza.

Mobile web tech could support the overwhelming majority of use cases without jank with a few key, non-impossible improvements. And they would if there were any incentive for platform owners to do so.

Re: Dominance of Apple and Google’s app stores impacting competition and consumers

#180

Post by Barrin92 »

havernator wrote: post #77
encryptluks2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. I don't understand the argument Apple users are presenting. Its like they can't comprehend that they can have an option to install third-party apps but they don't have to enable or use that if they like being "protected" from hurting themselves.

Right now, ~100% of the software available for iOS has to follow Apple's rules, offer a consistent and safe payment method, and install through the App Store. I assume you think that would change, else why have other app stores. That's what I don't want. I want as close to 100% of the software for iOS as possible to have to follow the rules. That's part of why I chose iOS.

Sorry, but why exactly do you want other users to be deprived of software choice on iOS? Like how is that enhancing your experience?

I get that people want to use Apple only software, in which case I'd understand why they don't want other software on the Apple Store, but how the hell is your experience worse if there is another store available on the phone? Just never use it?

It's like as if Microsoft locked down Windows and the only option you have available is to install things through the Windows Store and someone goes "yeah that's why I use windows man, I don't want anyone to be able to install Steam". Has anyone ever argued this? how did it become a thing

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