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Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

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Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#151

Post by flavius29663 »

slothtrop wrote: post #110
flavius29663 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as a white that grew up very very poor, I can't possibly understand why so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege, when most of them had many more resources growing up.

> so many black people try to convince me that I'm guilty of white privilege The articles beating this drum are actually overwhelmingly written by white people. I think the term was popularized precisely because it is needlessly incendiary, as controversy means better click-bait. If you ignore the blanket term entirely and focus simply on meaning, people mostly agree with one another. For instance, it's uncontroversi…

Very well put. This whole BLM and white priviledge movement looks like it's setup to cause trouble, not solve issues. I think it's detrimental to the black cause too, so I wonder who and with what purpose is pushing this messaging?

Like you said, it would have been so much easier for everyone to acknowledge the black dis-priviledge. In the current state of affairs, the poors of Appalachia are somewhat privileged? That's laughable, they haven't had a good chance in generations.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#152

Post by molsongolden »

the_only_law wrote: post #123
molsongolden wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sending out an HN bat signal here: I can't find the article/post that this comment reminded me of but it was a semi-recent discussion/breakdown of class in the USA. All I remember is that it called out Jeff Bezos as upper middle class.

Yes, I recall what you’re taking about as well. The article submitted was about a book in class in the US. I believe from the 80s. The classes were defined differently from their colloquial usages. And I found it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26351913 The line about Bezos is in the linked article.

That's the one. Thank you!

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#153

Post by ErikVandeWater »

pedrosorio wrote: post #129
mavelikara wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's not testing for anything real. You are too quick to dismiss the study, I think. What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. The study simulates the other things being equal scenario by eliminating all other avenues for the hiring manager to judge. Here is the quote from the TFA, lightly edited for emphasis: The study…

> What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. In an interview where you're not allowed to evaluate "all other things". In other words, absent any other information, people believe those from a higher class are more likely to be competent. Is that true? The link says nothing about it. If it is true, the hiring managers did a go…

Exactly. It's not discrimination if it is objectively true.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#154

Post by hnxs »

TameAntelope wrote: post #42
hnxs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think class is primarily dictated by three things on a superficial level, e.g ten minutes or less of a first interaction with someone: - How you speak - How you dress - How physically attractive you are, specifically in regards to things like height, fitness, and angular features. Skin color takes a backseat to these factors in the modern era

Yes, with the addendum of, "If any of these things place you into a minority community, you immediately lose." What is "good speech"? What is "good dress"? What is "attractive"? To much of society, those answers are, "Whatever sounds/looks like the popular culture I consume." and that's a problem.

Imagine you are someone who lives in Beijing meeting a person from the Chinese countryside for the first time. That should help you come up with answers to your questions.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#155

Post by AnthonyMouse »

TameAntelope wrote: post #143
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole, "We should trick white people into being kinder to minorities" argument is, frankly, insulting to white people, among many other not-very-noble things. White people should be able to hear arguments about racial inequality without losing their collective minds. I think this is missing the problem with that framing. You're kind of assuming that the reason people oppose a bill purported to solve a problem f…

I hear you, and I can soften my tone somewhat, but I still think this is trying to advocate for some kind of "secret liberal agenda" (and I mean those words specifically, not as a dig), and I don't think that's a good idea. If you're trying to help black people, say that's what you're doing, don't "hide" your intention, if that's what your intention is. I think it's the responsibility of the white fisherman in your s…

> His failure to figure that out is his fault, not the people trying to help's fault

So it's pretty unrealistic to expect every fisherman to go out and read every bill that comes before Congress. Members of Congress don't even read the bills.

It's supposed to be the role of journalists to convey what the bills do to the public. And then that's what we're talking about.

If the media is telling everyone that the bill is to help someone else and not you (with the plausible implication that it could come at your expense in a zero sum game), it can't be that surprising that this gets less support than putting more emphasis on the fact that it also helps you.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#156

Post by ErikVandeWater »

indymike wrote: post #49
jpxw wrote: post #16

> the hiring managers judged the candidates from higher social classes as more likely to be competent for the job, and a better fit for it than the applicants from lower social classes. What if applicants from higher social classes actually are better fits for the job?

> What if applicants from higher social classes actually are better fits for the job? What a perfect example of social class bias. Change "from higher social class" to "from purple descent" or "from a Pastafarian background" and you have racial or religious bias.

Bias implies deviation from the correct outcome. If Pastafarians happen to be the best at astrophysics, are you saying we should intentionally keep better qualified Pastafarians out so other religious groups can be represented?

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#157

Post by ErikVandeWater »

vmception wrote: post #3

I think US-bias is more so class bias than race bias and this comes with a 99% correlation to racial discrimination due to the half millenium of directly ensuring certain races could not access the economy or capital or literacy. Racial discrimination also occurs. A lot of support for racial equality is lost because it is too reductive and invalidates the experience of potential allies in the majority power who exper…

Agree, except

> 99% correlation to racial discrimination

suggests that other races do not occupy the lower classes in any significant numbers compared to Blacks. I'd say 40ish %, which is still very high.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#158

Post by flukus »

anigbrowl wrote: post #105
flavius29663 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was stopped too by police and one time briefly searched, so what? Being stopped by the police is not a game changer. If you haven't done anything wrong you'll walk away and go to work and back home. Why is being stopped by police such a big deal? I think the police should do more of that in the US, it would reduce crime considerably.

The rapidly evolving complexity of your arguments above and below suggests to me your appearance of cluelessness was no more than a rhetorical posture. I have more respect for people who make their strongest arguments up front.

Classic sealioning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#159

Post by TameAntelope »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #155
TameAntelope wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you, and I can soften my tone somewhat, but I still think this is trying to advocate for some kind of "secret liberal agenda" (and I mean those words specifically, not as a dig), and I don't think that's a good idea. If you're trying to help black people, say that's what you're doing, don't "hide" your intention, if that's what your intention is. I think it's the responsibility of the white fisherman in your s…

> His failure to figure that out is his fault, not the people trying to help's fault So it's pretty unrealistic to expect every fisherman to go out and read every bill that comes before Congress. Members of Congress don't even read the bills. It's supposed to be the role of journalists to convey what the bills do to the public. And then that's what we're talking about. If the media is telling everyone that the bill i…

Agreed, with the one quibble that I don't believe the majority of media is actually doing that.

Re: Study shows class bias in hiring based on few seconds of speech

#160

Post by emodendroket »

ErikVandeWater wrote: post #153
pedrosorio wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the study shows, I think, is that other things being equal the person who sounds to be from higher class is likely to get the job. In an interview where you're not allowed to evaluate "all other things". In other words, absent any other information, people believe those from a higher class are more likely to be competent. Is that true? The link says nothing about it. If it is true, the hiring managers did a go…

Exactly. It's not discrimination if it is objectively true.

I would certainly want to see proof before I accepted it was true. And even if it were true, we might find it socially undesirable for people to act on (it's "objectively true" that hiring disabled people costs an employer money too). I have previously seen a similar study to this one where landlords were able to determine a prospective tenant's race in brief phone conversations and were less willing to rent to minority tenants. Was that also just sound, evidence based reasoning?
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