My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community • Hacker News Board

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#491

Post by secondcoming » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

jfengel wrote: post #131

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

The problem is that only a tiny percentage of harassers and rapists are ever convicted. The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction, and police and prosecutors often won't even attempt it unless the evidence is overwhelming. You're concerned that this is stacked against you, but the courts are stacked against the victims. So it doesn't really suffice to decry the one problem without addressing the othe…

This problem can only be solved with trial by coin toss

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#492

Post by shakkhar » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

swyx wrote: post #20

similar stories are emerging: - https://killnicole.github.io/statement/ (edit i see she has added it to the article itself) - https://twitter.com/brianclapper/status/1387115214064193537?... - https://twitter.com/adelbertchang/status/1387090351626723329... there seems to be some coordination here, as this came out pretty much at the same time. https://typelevel.org/blog/2021/04/27/community-safety.html Yifan also link…

When there's proof, only one story is enough.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#493

Post by analognoise » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:25 PM UTC

sweetheart wrote: post #478

analognoise wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like everyone is equal, until everyone is drunk, then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Which is the very thing feminism was fighting AGAINST - having men make decisions for you. Then we blame men, say they need to do better. That seems ridiculous.

> then the women need to be treated like children and protected. Mate, no. This applies to men, women, nonbinary folks, non-human animals, etc. Literally any living thing. If you don't consent, anyone having sex with you is wrong. It's wrong if a man tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person, and it's wrong if a women tries to have sex with a drunk, non-consenting person. This is the _opposite_ of making…

...so why is the part about them drinking in the story?

They were consenting adults, both well within their senses? Or was she like unconscious and he's an absolute monster?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#494

Post by oh_sigh » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:26 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #337

epicureanideal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

I'm seriously curious to know what kind of proof you would accept that would make you believe these accusations. I hear your sort of response a lot, but it's mostly from people who won't change their mind no matter what (and will continue to move the goalposts as more evidence comes to light), or set the bar so high that it's basically impossible to provide the proof they want.

Some evidence that would help would be conversations which were allegedly had, where one party clearly says "Don't contact me any more at all", and then later attempts of the other party to contact them.

This isn't proof, it is evidence, but I think that would help a bit. Even if party A and party B disagree about something that happened, if party A says stop contacting me, and party B continues to do so, that is wrong enough in itself.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#495

Post by grammarnazzzi » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:26 PM UTC

colecut wrote: post #373

sneak wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person. That's not a safe assumption at all.

That's why I threw in a probably. Innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz, but there will be assumptions nonetheless.. I would love to know what these women stand to gain by humiliating themselves if it is all made up.

> I would love to know what these women stand to gain by humiliating themselves if it is all made up.

narcissism, absolution of responsibility, validation, attention

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#496

Post by caeril » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

ALittleLight wrote: post #79

Pfhreak wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex was had while she did not consent, she mentions in the fifth paragraph.

Slightly later she writes "I maintained friendship with him for a few months after May, because I was convinced that it was all consensual". I think it is something of a philosophical issue to debate about whether you can think you consented and later determine you didn't. It's also strange to me that it takes months and consultation with a therapist to determine if you did or did not consent.

> it's also strange to me that it takes months and consultation with a therapist to determine if you did or did not consent.

No, this is not strange at all. Psychology is a non-falsifiable "science" with foundational literature that is littered with reproducibility scandals.

Psychological therapists are roughly as scientific as tarot card readers, and this woman's therapist had a full three years of time to gaslight her memories.

It's certainly possible that Pretty did what he's accused of. But any time you hear "years" and "therapist" in the context of an abuse allegation, be skeptical. The entire field is pure charlatanry.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#497

Post by orwin » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #254

> As an inexperienced young woman from a patriarchal culture, I was running away from the stereotype of being thought of as someone “traditional”. I should, like he implied, and wanted to be “cool about everything that happened”. “Just be cool” is such an abusive and manipulative behavior I’m flummoxed at how it’s lasted this long as socially acceptable.

Eveybody's talking about the "woke culture", "cancel culture" and all that and how it is bad for the society. The "cool culture" and associated social pressure is probably the single worst "culture" that happened in the last forty years, killed at least thousands and pushed even more to accept unacceptable things.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#498

Post by dijit » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

suifbwish wrote: post #450

faitswulff wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 but especially our boys. Girls and women already learn so much about how to avoid being harmed by men. It’s time for our boys to learn how to become kind men - and for those of us who are men to model that for them.

Are you implying that rape occurs because someone’s parents didn’t tell them not to or that they would not rape if their parents HAD told them not to do it?

I can play devils advocate a bit on this topic, because sadly there's no real "rules" for being a parent other than "don't let your kid die".

I am lucky to have a mother who never hid the harsher realities of life from me; She taught me how to understand what "no" means, because it's easy for horny young boys growing up to hear "no" as "No, I want you to try harder" or "No, I am a good girl and I do not want to look like a slut by giving in", so, she said "no means no because the risk of hurting her is much higher than the reward of getting your way".

I don't want to blame the media for putting this in our heads, because it _is_ a real thing (that women are sometimes bashful and may expect men to be a bit more pushy to show that they are serious) but because it's so nuanced and difficult it's better to play it safe, because you really _need_ to be _looking_ for the nuance and looking out for clues they're not into it and I don't think people (especially men) understand that.

And even then it's not a given that we're taught to look for it; and even if we are: it takes time even if you _do_ look for it, it's MUCH better to play it safe.

Anyway, my point is, parents don't _necessarily_ teach men or women what consent actually means, the media doesn't help.

A good example, of course, is: Silence is not consent. Which is a very difficult concept to grasp given that it leads to weird thoughts about "it's not romantic to ask if she wants to have sex" but it's not just about not asking, it's about looking for non-verbal cues which could be easily missed if you're aroused.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#499

Post by totony » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:27 PM UTC

WesolyKubeczek wrote: post #343

totony wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what the parent meant. If someone is intoxicated, I agree that it seems weird to disregard their consent when drugs+alcohols are the social lubricant of society (and very interwined with sex). Also, of course you are responsible for your actions even when under the influence (drive and kill someone? no excuse because you were intoxicated - it's your fault). It's crazy to me that people call that…

If you get drunk downtown, does it make getting your pockets picked and your smartphone stolen your fault ? You’re stupid if you get drunk downtown with an expensive smartphone where it can be easily stolen. Still, does it mean that you have somehow to share jail time with your thief, or does it mean that the thief has to serve less time, or that your thief may go with your smartphone because it’s your fault to get d…

>If you get drunk downtown, does it make getting your pockets picked and your smartphone stolen your fault?

Even if you are not drunk those are still not your fault in the way its argued here. A better (similar) analogy would be: if you are drunk and someone downtown asks you for 60$ and you give them, but tomorrow realize your mistake, is it your fault?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#500

Post by suifbwish » Tue, Apr 27, 2021, 11:28 PM UTC

colecut wrote: post #272

epicureanideal wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

"What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?" This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person.

What on earth makes you feel confident enough to say something like “this just pretty much does not happen without reason” . Some empirical evidence I hope.