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My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

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Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#261

Post by kapp_in_life »

rodgerd wrote: post #99
jdmoreira wrote: post #4

I have no clue on who this guy is nor do I have any sort of interest in Scala but this is terrible. If this is even remotely true I hope he suffers enormous consequences including being persecuted. How are people still getting away with this kind of abuse? How?

The top comment on this thread is a "what about the MEN?" exercise. HN is incredibly pro-sexual harasser and anti-victim, along with the broader tech community, sadly.

The top comment discusses the fate of an accused in the court of public opinion, and the limitations of that court. The fact you conflate that with saying "what about the MEN?" is more an indictment of your world view than anything they actually wrote.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#262

Post by ummonk »

swyx wrote: post #76
noobermin wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure what your brother faced is terrible but how exactly does this relate to the story?

its a reminder that mob justice is really terrible when it is wrong. we dont have all the facts. we should absolutely take precautions from this guy causing further harm, but the rape accusation needs to go thru the legal process including allowing the accused to defend themselves.

Well, in this instance given that his coworkers sent him a gift basket, it sounds like the mob came to the right conclusions while the institution took the wrong action.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#263

Post by Pfhreak »

ALittleLight wrote: post #163
_qwfv wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Or seen one firsthand? People can be made to believe all sorts of things that aren't true by charismatic or powerful people. It may take them some time to realize they are being tricked or abused. You absolutely can be told you consented, and trust that person's word, and realize later that no, actually you had not. It's just convenient for the abuser for you to believe…

Maybe that's true and some Rasputin-like figure could manipulate you into believing you thought things that you didn't, but that doesn't seem to be what is alleged here. She wasn't living in this guy's cult, he helped her professionally and with conferences, and she agreed to share a room with him on a trip. That strikes me as less mind-control and more just a situation that people get into sometimes. She is and was…

She was left panicked and crying. That's not generally a sign that there was unambiguous consent.

And it doesn't take a Rasputin-like figure to be an abuser. Plenty of people are taken advantage of and taught to believe things they later realize were abusive, even in relatively short situations. Pretty held all the power here -- he controlled where she was staying, he helped her get to the conference, she was intoxicated, she believe he was her mentor, she believe he had the ability to get her industry connections, etc.

Coercing someone into sex that they later realize wasn't consensual (once they are free from that person's influence) doesn't mean she was lying in the moment or is somehow "discovering" something now.

> Can I not expect her to know, in the typical case, whether she does or does not consent to sex?

Adult humans (because I think this can happen to men too), can absolutely be caught off guard and be "unsure" about whether they are consenting to sex. Not everyone is wired the same, and not everyone is able to make a quick snap judgement. Not everyone is fully able to say no when pressured.

Furthermore, grappling with the question, "Was I just raped/sexually abused?" is really, really challenging. What does that do to your identity? Are you forever a victim? Are you going to have to out yourself and someone else? Will you forever be the target of the public's pity? Are you going to have that stigma attached to you when you want to enter relationships in the future? That's a LOT to put on someone, and many, many victims choose to try and believe that things were consensual, because it seems easier that facing the realization they were abused.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#264

Post by jokethrowaway »

xahrepap wrote: post #119
fishnchips wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contact law enforcement.

A relative ran an online community. It was small, but not tiny There was some cyber-bullying (for lack of a better word) going on. My relative called law-enforcement, then was referred to the FBI. A case was filed and was told they would circle back on it to collect details. They never called back. My relative was never able to make contact with them about it again. Completely ignored. I can't remember the details, b…

Public law enforcement doesn't have any incentive doing anything.

We need private police and a new legal system

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#265

Post by vkou »

knodi123 wrote: post #212
JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

The redress for a false accusation that results in serious harm to your career is a slander lawsuit. Sounds like all the ducks are in a row, evidence wise, so just figure out how much damage she caused, and sue her for it. I know it's not quite the same, and an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure- but there's this narrative that a person who is falsely accused is utterly powerless before the power of a…

What's doubly ironic is that the bar for convicting an actual predator in a criminal court of law is incredibly high, but the bar for winning a libel case against a false accuser in a civil court is... A lot lower.

It's far easier to obtain justice when you are falsely accused, then when you have been assaulted - but HN threads on the subject are predominantly full of arguments about how awful the falsely accused have it.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#266

Post by philwelch »

andrewzah wrote: post #168
Sebb767 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And people who are accused are damned, period. I can see why mob justice can sometimes be the only options for victims, but the abuse potential is massive . By the way, I see no reason a woman or a trans person could not make this statement.

"but the abuse potential is massive." I think people grossly exaggerate this. We have libel and slander laws. Individual companies aside, entire communities of people aren't that stupid. In my opinion, this is a really pessimistic view of people and also not based in reality in my experience. At the end of the day, we need to be able to listen to victims. The amount of fake accusers compared to real victims is micros…

> I think people grossly exaggerate this. We have libel and slander laws.

Yeah, but think about how those work. (IANAL).

If I can convince enough people that you are an awful person, I can ruin your reputation. As a recourse, you can sue me for defamation. But once you do that, we’ve switched sides—now I am the defendant and you are the accuser. Unlike a criminal defendant, the defendant in the court of public opinion never enjoys a presumption of innocence. Instead, he has to carry that burden of proof through a civil lawsuit just to clear his name.

> Individual companies aside, entire communities of people aren't that stupid.

If that’s true, why bother with courts of law in the first case? If the mob is capable of adjudicating questions of guilt or innocence, we’re wasting a lot of money on lawyers as a society.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#267

Post by nawgz »

Fern_Blossom wrote: post #175
btilly wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only kind of agree. In this case a Chinese woman living in the USA apparently got raped in Germany 3 years ago. To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report? I hate the court…

>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. >And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all. Don't complain…

There are plenty of stories of law enforcement ignoring, downplaying, and even harassing victims of sexual crimes who try to report it. Please do not act like the police are a high trust authority who act only in good faith - we have overwhelmingly seen the other side of that in these past years.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#268

Post by nindalf »

JPKab wrote: post #27

Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. While I empathize with the author, and utterly despise the archetype of high-status men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women, I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author?…

You see the double standard you’re preaching?

When a woman is sexually assaulted, you tell them to use the justice system. You stick to this despite other folks telling you the chances of conviction are low. You don’t want people to make public accusations.

And yet you, in this thread, have no problem making accusations against Nike for wrongful termination. Why not use the legal system to pursue this? You answer that too - low chance of success apparently.

Within a few minutes you’ve done exactly what you’re asking OP not to do.

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#269

Post by mirekrusin »

_qwfv wrote: post #157
mirekrusin wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be easier to judge if she said that she did not give consent. You may be right, but you also have to agree that some people will pause before judging definite rape for described situation where girl accepts invitation to sleep in the same airbnb, without anybody else, with single guy, bringing bottle of wine, not mentioning she did not give consent, feeling bad afterwards. From that description it's really d…

> some people will pause before judging definite rape for described situation where girl accepts invitation to sleep in the same airbnb, without anybody else, with single guy, bringing bottle of wine, None of those things even remotely imply consent for a sexual advance. Those are all things that should be fine for anyone of any gender to do together without there being fear of a sexual assault. Anyone who looks at t…

I think you cut the list a bit.

As an thought experiment try to think that your husband/wife does those things with somebody (accepts invitation to sleep in the same airbnb, without anybody else, with single opposite sex, bringing bottle of wine) - would you be worried? And if yes, why? Is it not even remotely possible that somebody would feel weird about their partner doing it?

Re: My experience with sexual harassment in the Scala community

#270

Post by lukasb »

epicureanideal wrote: post #256
swyx wrote: post #20

similar stories are emerging: - https://killnicole.github.io/statement/ (edit i see she has added it to the article itself) - https://twitter.com/brianclapper/status/1387115214064193537?... - https://twitter.com/adelbertchang/status/1387090351626723329... there seems to be some coordination here, as this came out pretty much at the same time. https://typelevel.org/blog/2021/04/27/community-safety.html Yifan also link…

Sometimes character assassination is coordinated. I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof. What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?

What proof would satisfy you? How is a victim of rape supposed to be able to supply that proof? Should women wear body cams at all times?
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