Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk • Hacker News Board

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#61

Post by berntb » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 8:19 AM UTC

lispm wrote: post #59

My impression is that there are already way too many people working for the military industrial complex. It would be much better if the US would scale down their oversized military and then it also might consider working on goods that advance the life of people and which might actually be interesting to others so they can be sold. The military jobs is actually one reason the US lacks competitiveness in some areas (se…

As a counter argument, consider DARPA. They do important R&D that no one else do. (As far as we know; it is a relatively open process).

You could make quite a good argument that military, academic and industrial research are partly orthogonal; they complement each others.

But I can agree that to waste money and really build the military equipment is mostly a waste of money. :-)

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#62

Post by blrs » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 8:35 AM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #35

programminggeek wrote: post #17

I think that part of the problem is in how geeks are trained and what they work on. For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. Most end users of said software don't like it and have zero appreciation for the people who made it. Outside of Silicon Valley being a geek isn't…

For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. For what it's worth, nothing requires Enterprise software to be big, ugly, boring, hard to use, etc. Maybe I'm biased, since I'm working on an Enterprise Software startup, but I think this stuff can be damn interesting. Then agai…

This definitely seems interesting. Are you guys hiring?

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#63

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 8:44 AM UTC

floppydisk wrote: post #50

angryasian wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a terrible post on several levels. first none of the apps are magical, they are all sites that are fun. Time wasters as some people may call it. There is a huge difference between apps for productivity and having fun. In the end being productive is not always fun. Claiming some languages are not geeky enough is super ignorant. As long as the person is coding out of some level of enjoyment is all that matters.…

I'm down for hacking on kernel code and learning the guts of an OS! I do think the grandparent has a valid point though. Most enterprise corporations do treat IT / development as plug and play instead of "engineers." I think enterprise coding would be fascinating, but they are stuck in a language and platform rut (PHP/Java/C# and something else whose name escapes me) and don't let the engineers explore other solution…

[deleted]

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#64

Post by Derbasti » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 9:16 AM UTC

cynest wrote: post #9

sp_ wrote: post #6

German, Romanian, Vietnamese-American (1st generation immigrant), Chinese-American (1st generation immigrant), Spanish, Iranian, French, Australian, South African, Indian, British, Russian. What's that? The nationalities of the people who sit in my hallway in the computer security department of one of the biggest software companies in the United States. OK, admittedly there also four or five true red-blooded American…

> That is not the case in the United States ... where the reputation ladder is topped by jobs like doctor or lawyer That would be a sample of environments where higher education is strongly pushed. In the area I grew up in, the amount parents spent pushing their kids to excel in athletics above anything else is stupid. I know a 6th-grade teacher who complains about kids not having any time for homework because they p…

Are you saying that engineering does not require higher education in the US? It sure does in Europe...

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#65

Post by georgieporgie » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 9:40 AM UTC

rdouble wrote: post #39

They are operating on obsolete data. CS enrollment has been on an upswing since 2009. This topic reveals a bit of confusion within the industry. On one hand there's a commonly held belief that anyone outside of the top 1% of developers is next to worthless as an employee. Yet when articles like this come out suggesting a huge shortage of home-grown nerds, everyone agrees that "something must be done" and kids must be…

It's government employees trying to pad their resume by spearheading programs along with industry types trying to get labor as cheaply as possible.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#66

Post by georgieporgie » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 9:53 AM UTC

If you go into computer science, you will:

* Work with a lot of socially underdeveloped people. Hey, they spend their time fighting compilers, not reaching consensus. Soft skills are largely irrelevant.

* Probably work in one of a very few technology hubs around the world. This is all the more painful when you realize how little interaction you actually need with your team, and you could be doing your job from a shack on a Thai beach.

* Never have your job understood by anyone. Unless your S.O. is also a geek, he/she will have no deep understanding and appreciation of your work, beyond the decent salary. Random strangers will have no idea what "software engineer" or "researcher" means.

* Spend your life in front of a computer. If you are in a certain percentage of the population (which you won't know), you may suffer debilitating physical pain from this which curbs or ends your career.

* Experience a significant uptick in ageism around your mid-thirties. Just when you're gaining some wisdom to go along with your sponge-like learning ability, you'll suddenly find yourself devalued for no objective reason.

You can go into finance and become a millionaire, or at least hob-nob with a few. You can become a doctor, lawyer, or (to a lesser extent) a CPA, probably make better money, and get significantly more respect. You can become a teacher, cop, or join the military and make less, but be labeled 'hero'. Why would you want to be a professional geek?

My advice to young people is to pursue your interest in CS, but major in something else. Being in a non-CS field with outstanding computer skills makes you very special. Those same computer skills are merely so-so in tech centers, and you have no additional versatility.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#67

Post by cynest » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 10:06 AM UTC

Derbasti wrote: post #64

cynest wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is not the case in the United States ... where the reputation ladder is topped by jobs like doctor or lawyer That would be a sample of environments where higher education is strongly pushed. In the area I grew up in, the amount parents spent pushing their kids to excel in athletics above anything else is stupid. I know a 6th-grade teacher who complains about kids not having any time for homework because they p…

Are you saying that engineering does not require higher education in the US? It sure does in Europe...

I was referring only to US tendencies to perceive certain professions as more prestigious. Doctors and lawyers have more prestige compared to other professions if you only include those prestigious professions that mandate higher education.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#68

Post by ericd » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 10:27 AM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #52

ahi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Compared to doctors and lawyers, engineers have pretty crappy salaries. If you are smart and in it for the money, you don't go into engineering.

I've heard there is an oversupply of lawyers, and if you look at bay area wages compared to many lawyers/doctors, they can be close, and we're not stuck in overpriced school for a double amount of time.

Yeah, I think the high hourly wages belies the fact that the lawyers must be underemployed, unless they're manufacturing work for themselves. That latter part is a pretty chilling thought, actually...

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#69

Post by marknadal » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 10:57 AM UTC

Perhaps the 43 percent enrollment drop was partly due to the "geeks" leaving college and scoring funding for their startup.

Perhaps the "without college graduates with the ability to understand and innovate cutting edge technologies in the decades to come" is due to the problem that colleges are usually several years behind in teaching the newest software. Are you going to hire somebody who learned how to do AJAX calls to PHP in school or somebody who is running websockets to Node.js?

Perhaps "...appeal to teens, but they want programs to include career days, mentoring, lab tours and counseling." is exactly what turns off a hacker. Solving problems is engaging, getting lectured at by some mentor or counselor is not.

The real shortage will be from pushing all the hackers into lulzsec and anonymous, not from the imploding academia.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#70

Post by NY_USA_Hacker » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 11:14 AM UTC

cynest wrote: post #67

Derbasti wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that engineering does not require higher education in the US? It sure does in Europe...

I was referring only to US tendencies to perceive certain professions as more prestigious. Doctors and lawyers have more prestige compared to other professions if you only include those prestigious professions that mandate higher education.

You are getting close: List the characteristics of the usual professions and then conclude that in the US software is not a profession. It's even less of a profession than being a plumber or electrician since can need a license for each of these.

Lawyers? They have a cute professional rule that a lawyer working as a lawyer must be supervised by a lawyer. So, no stuffed suit, business middle manager types need apply to supervise lawyers in an organization.