Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk • Hacker News Board

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#21

Post by dorian-graph » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:02 AM UTC

programminggeek wrote: post #17

I think that part of the problem is in how geeks are trained and what they work on. For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. Most end users of said software don't like it and have zero appreciation for the people who made it. Outside of Silicon Valley being a geek isn't…

A common effective solution to situations like this is for the affected to proactively tell their own story — this seems to be one of the 'only' ways to counter long-standing social image problems.

Recently this website was posted to HN, http://weusemath.org/

They're trying to change the common ideas held in regards to math and what you hear from high schools, "I'll never use math in real life!"

Now seems like the primetime to begin a similar movement for geeks/hackers and I assume this has even been tried before. There is Zuckerberg the successful geek with even the movie (The Social Network) pushing this image. Some of my friends who I know I do some programming have approached me saying they have a cool idea for an app and asked if it'd be hard to make. I think an effective answer would be to explain how the development process goes, show them writing some basic app, and inviting them to learn.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#22

Post by sixtofour » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:14 AM UTC

econo_girl wrote: post #4

I think this really comes down to basic economics. Talking about a "shortage" of something is equivalent to saying the market isn't clearing: that there's more demand than supply. And having more demand than supply is equivalent to the price being too low. Salaries for developers, inflation-adjusted, have remained essentially the same since the dot-com boom. Meanwhile, salaries for bankers and consultants and lawyers…

Maybe they just want more people to go into STEM so their price will drop.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#23

Post by marshallp » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:14 AM UTC

programminggeek wrote: post #17

I think that part of the problem is in how geeks are trained and what they work on. For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. Most end users of said software don't like it and have zero appreciation for the people who made it. Outside of Silicon Valley being a geek isn't…

"We need to do more things that are "magic" like iPhone, Facebook, Kinect, and StumbleUpon(which has become bizarrely popular on college campuses I've noticed) and less things that are super lame like building horrid software that people loathe using - Lotus Notes, SAP,"

you have it quite backwards there - SAP is a hugely sophisticated piece of software that runs huge companies. Comparing it to facebook or kinect or stumbleupon desn't do it justice (it's been developing since the 70s).

Having a "boring" megacorp job in an air conditioned office writing is what most people dream of around the world.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#24

Post by house345 » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:17 AM UTC

Obviously, finding good people to hire is not easy. Many US government agencies and contracting companies need "cleared" US citizens. Waiting several months for the clearance process is sometimes not an option. I know one employer right now who is offering $1000 to employees for every person they bring in to interview. The interview candidates must have an active US government security clearance.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#25

Post by aorshan » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:23 AM UTC

As a college student, I think the best way to get people my age motivated to become geeks and get into computer programming is to show them how cool it can be as well as how it can result in being successful. Students need to see how cool it is to be involved in the tech startup community. The Social Network movie did a great job of showcasing this, but I think it needs to be taken further. Essentially we need to work on turning tech companies and their founders into celebrities in the same way that sports teams and their players are.

Also I think we need to change how people are exposed to programming. For many people, the phrase "I'll explain how this works later" is highly discouraging. As such when the first language they are exposed to is a C variant, they tend to be immediately turned off. Languages like Python should be the base of programming education as they provide the ease of use that can excite new users, while still providing the foundations necessary to learn more complex languages. Also, when learning a language students should really be shown what they can do with the tools they are learning. For example I was in an introductory class and the teacher taught what a class was, but not how we could use it for anything.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#26

Post by angryasian » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:26 AM UTC

programminggeek wrote: post #17

I think that part of the problem is in how geeks are trained and what they work on. For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. Most end users of said software don't like it and have zero appreciation for the people who made it. Outside of Silicon Valley being a geek isn't…

this is a terrible post on several levels. first none of the apps are magical, they are all sites that are fun. Time wasters as some people may call it. There is a huge difference between apps for productivity and having fun. In the end being productive is not always fun. Claiming some languages are not geeky enough is super ignorant. As long as the person is coding out of some level of enjoyment is all that matters. Figuring out how to scale is an amazing challenge.. its not super fun and its not something not all people may find enjoyable, but its something that people in Enterprise have to deal with. Hacking on kernel code to make something run more efficiently is not a "Superstar" activity that will be enjoyed by millions of users like Facebook but someone has to do it. Every day there are millions of businesses that rely on these day coders to help run businesses more efficiently. Not everyone wants to work in a start up and dedicate 12 hours of their days to a company that may never come to fruition. When you get out in the real world as a coder.. everyone will pitch you their billion dollar ideas and after the 3rd or 4th time of dedication long days and weekends and only reaching failure.. one of these desk jobs feels good. Sorry but this post is pure ignorance.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#27

Post by mattdeboard » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:26 AM UTC

ww520 wrote: post #19

mattdeboard wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an implicit "smart & passionate" qualifier on the title of the article. There's a shortage of smart and passionate geeks. It's not about cramming more people into the Computer Science pipeline. That will make absolutely no impact on the actual problem.

Whenever I read "smart & passionate," I see "smart & willing to work for less."

Demanding equitable compensation falls under the rubric of "smart." If you're willing to work for pay below market value, you're not smart, therefore don't meet the "smart and passionate" condition.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#28

Post by mattdeboard » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:30 AM UTC

econo_girl wrote: post #13

mattdeboard wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an implicit "smart & passionate" qualifier on the title of the article. There's a shortage of smart and passionate geeks. It's not about cramming more people into the Computer Science pipeline. That will make absolutely no impact on the actual problem.

The principles of supply and demand apply just as much to the market for "smart and passionate labor" as "all labor". If demand exceeds supply, the price is too low. Even if you assumed that the ability to program was purely the result of some genetic mutation, so that there were X programmers in the world and there could never ever be any more, there still wouldn't be a shortage if prices rose enough - because there…

I was mainly responding to the, "Pay people to go to college for CS" statement.

My point: Disqus has been hiring for QUITE a while, very vigorously. I know for certain they are getting a ton of applications. I'm really quite sure they're offering market value for the kind of talent they're looking for. So, what's the problem?

I'd wager they're having trouble finding people talented enough and who make a good culture fit.

Then again, when I think programming I don't think cubicle-wage-slave cranking out Java or something. I guess you could quadruple the number of code monkeys in the world to fill all THOSE positions. I wouldn't want to work with the people who came out of that factory, though.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#29

Post by mattdeboard » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:32 AM UTC

marshallp wrote: post #23

programminggeek wrote: post #17

I think that part of the problem is in how geeks are trained and what they work on. For example, think of all the software people go go to school, learn java, and then build big ugly enterprise bank, insurance, whatever software inside some megacorp that nobody cares about. Most end users of said software don't like it and have zero appreciation for the people who made it. Outside of Silicon Valley being a geek isn't…

"We need to do more things that are "magic" like iPhone, Facebook, Kinect, and StumbleUpon(which has become bizarrely popular on college campuses I've noticed) and less things that are super lame like building horrid software that people loathe using - Lotus Notes, SAP," you have it quite backwards there - SAP is a hugely sophisticated piece of software that runs huge companies. Comparing it to facebook or kinect or…

> Having a "boring" megacorp job in an air conditioned office writing is what most people dream of around the world.

I'm sure they do. But those of us who are meeting our basic needs can aspire to do something a little more exciting than the bare minimum.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#30

Post by keiferski » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 3:40 AM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #5

I suggest working to deprecate the glorification of sports stars, actors, rock musicians, and other careers that don't contribute to the advancement of humanity. Demonstrate the wonders of STEM fields, and do so in a non-hokey manner (I've seen the government ads and the ACM ads, they are terrible). Instead of bubble-heads on the evening news, work to have thoughtful people providing the voice of the country. Work to…

I'm with you on the athletes, but actors and musicians don't contribute to the advancement of humanity? I'm sorry, but you're quite mistaken.

The notion that only technical fields are valuable is a very, very short-sighted mentality. Both technical and non-technical people provide value, and the proper way to get more of both isn't to attack those that are unlike you.