Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk • Hacker News Board

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#51

Post by uniclaude » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:07 AM UTC

cynest wrote: post #9

sp_ wrote: post #6

German, Romanian, Vietnamese-American (1st generation immigrant), Chinese-American (1st generation immigrant), Spanish, Iranian, French, Australian, South African, Indian, British, Russian. What's that? The nationalities of the people who sit in my hallway in the computer security department of one of the biggest software companies in the United States. OK, admittedly there also four or five true red-blooded American…

> That is not the case in the United States ... where the reputation ladder is topped by jobs like doctor or lawyer That would be a sample of environments where higher education is strongly pushed. In the area I grew up in, the amount parents spent pushing their kids to excel in athletics above anything else is stupid. I know a 6th-grade teacher who complains about kids not having any time for homework because they p…

May I ask you where are you from ? I had not idea about such a place.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#52

Post by mahyarm » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:31 AM UTC

ahi wrote: post #49

sp_ wrote: post #6

German, Romanian, Vietnamese-American (1st generation immigrant), Chinese-American (1st generation immigrant), Spanish, Iranian, French, Australian, South African, Indian, British, Russian. What's that? The nationalities of the people who sit in my hallway in the computer security department of one of the biggest software companies in the United States. OK, admittedly there also four or five true red-blooded American…

Compared to doctors and lawyers, engineers have pretty crappy salaries. If you are smart and in it for the money, you don't go into engineering.

I've heard there is an oversupply of lawyers, and if you look at bay area wages compared to many lawyers/doctors, they can be close, and we're not stuck in overpriced school for a double amount of time.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#53

Post by mahyarm » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:33 AM UTC

sp_ wrote: post #6

German, Romanian, Vietnamese-American (1st generation immigrant), Chinese-American (1st generation immigrant), Spanish, Iranian, French, Australian, South African, Indian, British, Russian. What's that? The nationalities of the people who sit in my hallway in the computer security department of one of the biggest software companies in the United States. OK, admittedly there also four or five true red-blooded American…

You forgot Canadians and Israelis! Immigrant heavy companies tend to be higher in the bay area. Look in Seattle or Portland and it's not as high.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#54

Post by mavelikara » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 5:46 AM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #28

econo_girl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The principles of supply and demand apply just as much to the market for "smart and passionate labor" as "all labor". If demand exceeds supply, the price is too low. Even if you assumed that the ability to program was purely the result of some genetic mutation, so that there were X programmers in the world and there could never ever be any more, there still wouldn't be a shortage if prices rose enough - because there…

I was mainly responding to the, "Pay people to go to college for CS" statement. My point: Disqus has been hiring for QUITE a while, very vigorously. I know for certain they are getting a ton of applications. I'm really quite sure they're offering market value for the kind of talent they're looking for. So, what's the problem? I'd wager they're having trouble finding people talented enough and who make a good culture…

> I'm really quite sure they're offering market value for the kind of talent they're looking for. So, what's the problem?

The OP seems to suggest that offering _significantly above_ the market value would be the solution.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#55

Post by mavelikara » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:04 AM UTC

pnathan wrote: post #45

keiferski wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm with you on the athletes, but actors and musicians don't contribute to the advancement of humanity? I'm sorry, but you're quite mistaken. The notion that only technical fields are valuable is a very, very short-sighted mentality. Both technical and non-technical people provide value, and the proper way to get more of both isn't to attack those that are unlike you.

Engineers and scientists provide better water and better food. Actors and musicians do neither. I consider that pretty valuable. That said, it's a question of balance. And it's also a question of not accepting all things as of equal value, which is required for progress.

I am reminded of an old Billy Joel interview:

"It's kind of weird--the values. Jonas Salk invented the polio vaccine. I'm probably worth a lot more than Jonas Salk. That's pretty weird. I didn't cure polio; this guy did. I walk into a bar and a whole bunch of people know who I am. Jonas Salk probably can't even get laid. Now, figure that out."

http://www.piano-man.de/archiv/detail.asp?ID=93&Artikel_...

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#56

Post by invalidOrTaken » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:22 AM UTC

mattdeboard wrote: post #28

econo_girl wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The principles of supply and demand apply just as much to the market for "smart and passionate labor" as "all labor". If demand exceeds supply, the price is too low. Even if you assumed that the ability to program was purely the result of some genetic mutation, so that there were X programmers in the world and there could never ever be any more, there still wouldn't be a shortage if prices rose enough - because there…

I was mainly responding to the, "Pay people to go to college for CS" statement. My point: Disqus has been hiring for QUITE a while, very vigorously. I know for certain they are getting a ton of applications. I'm really quite sure they're offering market value for the kind of talent they're looking for. So, what's the problem? I'd wager they're having trouble finding people talented enough and who make a good culture…

Aren't they by definition not offering market value if they're having a hard time finding people?

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#57

Post by potatolicious » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 6:53 AM UTC

mahyarm wrote: post #53

sp_ wrote: post #6

German, Romanian, Vietnamese-American (1st generation immigrant), Chinese-American (1st generation immigrant), Spanish, Iranian, French, Australian, South African, Indian, British, Russian. What's that? The nationalities of the people who sit in my hallway in the computer security department of one of the biggest software companies in the United States. OK, admittedly there also four or five true red-blooded American…

You forgot Canadians and Israelis! Immigrant heavy companies tend to be higher in the bay area. Look in Seattle or Portland and it's not as high.

Seattle? I'm here right now, the area where I sit:

- 4x Indian - 1x Chinese-American - 1x Chinese-Canadian - 1x German - 1x Filipino - 2x American

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#58

Post by pyre » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 7:03 AM UTC

danenania wrote: post #32

pnathan wrote: post #5

I suggest working to deprecate the glorification of sports stars, actors, rock musicians, and other careers that don't contribute to the advancement of humanity. Demonstrate the wonders of STEM fields, and do so in a non-hokey manner (I've seen the government ads and the ACM ads, they are terrible). Instead of bubble-heads on the evening news, work to have thoughtful people providing the voice of the country. Work to…

"I suggest working to deprecate the glorification of sports stars, actors, rock musicians, and other careers that don't contribute to the advancement of humanity." Programming and computer science are important, but there's no need to belittle other professions. All the careers you listed require skill and dedication and contribute to the advancement of humanity in their own ways. I agree it's always good to raise th…

The point being that kids are growing up in a culture that puts more importance on becoming a celebrity in the entertainment business than on the task of increasing the breadth and depth of human knowledge.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#59

Post by lispm » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 7:04 AM UTC

My impression is that there are already way too many people working for the military industrial complex.

It would be much better if the US would scale down their oversized military and then it also might consider working on goods that advance the life of people and which might actually be interesting to others so they can be sold.

The military jobs is actually one reason the US lacks competitiveness in some areas (see the huge trade deficit). This works so: getting rich is very important.So young people go to finance and other gambling like activities. The more engineer interested people find jobs in the military. There they work on extremely costly projects like nuclear aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, nuclear weapons, drones, fighter planes, etc. These projects come with a huge price tag. The technologies used, the specifications used, the processes used are mostly incompatible with what a civil market needs. So the military engineers are naturally trained in the wrong direction. For example a vehicle constructed for the military is heavy, provides protection, has a huge payload, is robust, has infrastructure for certain types of equipment, etc.. Think of a tank or a hummer. Most of these requirements don't fit into what is needed for, say, automobiles. There we need to look at design, comfort, fuel efficiency, etc. But the US cars mostly (not all) are oversized, bulky, fuel inefficient, ugly. Why? Because the engineer culture constantly has an influx of different values coming from military engineering. For them it is more important to drive securely through the streets of Bagdad, and not through some large US city.

Now, I think there is a need to work on topics like cyber security, but it may help at the same time to reduce other projects like the large spying agencies and much of the military. Currently these are expanding in the wrong direction.

Re: Darpa: US Geek Shortage Is National Security Risk

#60

Post by cynest » Sat, Jun 25, 2011, 7:41 AM UTC

uniclaude wrote: post #51

cynest wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is not the case in the United States ... where the reputation ladder is topped by jobs like doctor or lawyer That would be a sample of environments where higher education is strongly pushed. In the area I grew up in, the amount parents spent pushing their kids to excel in athletics above anything else is stupid. I know a 6th-grade teacher who complains about kids not having any time for homework because they p…

May I ask you where are you from ? I had not idea about such a place.

Clovis, CA