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Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

nj.com

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Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#171

Post by ardit33 »

deepakhj wrote: post #133
NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sentiment about arrest rates really needs to go. I've done a deep dive into the numbers. Murder rate data from the FBI has a large "unknown" category, so I'll handle that in a few ways for simplicity. Focusing on murders rather than other violent crime is the best thing to do because, while there may be a lot of ambiguity about what constitutes "assault", how often it's reported, etc., there really isn't much am…

I don't believe white and black people are on the same footing economically. They've been held down since slavery and it still affects them today. Here's a few examples: real estate redlining (even though that was banned it's still happening today in other forms https://projects.newsday.com/long-island/real-estate-agents-... ), the Tulsi race massacre (This story is crazy), urban renewal (Fillmore, West Oakland), all…

I have heard the 'red-lining' problem, at is is a problem in wealth accumulation but it still doesn't explain high crime rates at all.

Problem is that you have lots of poor immigrants that immigrated here from former communist countries, or latin america, or Laos/Cambodia, with no money and no savings whatsover. Some came as starving refugees, and are still poorer than the average.

Yet, they don't end up doing crime at the same rate as some other poor people.

Being poor seems like a copout and doesn't address the issue.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#172

Post by watwut »

failwhaleshark wrote: post #155

Why is this such a rarity these days? My grandfather was an AP (MP) for decades and never shot at anyone, despite handling uncountable hairy/critical situations with individuals trained in killing. Shoot first and ask questions never? Deescalation and self-control should be job #1 along with verbal/social skills to solve problems before jumping to the nuclear option out of fear.

Different training. Different level of accountability/liability/etc. Cops are not trained to deescalate, their are taught to have commanding control and respond aggressively. And they are trained to shoot to kill. They are also taught to fear a lot, the emphasis is on danger they are in.

And plus, this behavior is rewarded with promotions. And courts progressively removed legal obstacles to the above.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#173

Post by zo1 »

brigandish wrote: post #124
sanguy wrote: post #92

We need Robocop more than ever in this country. Or Judge's like Dredd. No judgement for color, gender, age, or appearance. Just policing based on the facts of the situation and the criminal record of those being policed.

> We need Robocop more than ever in this country. Or Judge's like Dredd. Both were a satire on fascism, I'm not sure they're the best examples you could find.

And yet here we are, in just the last few days:

1. Making organ "donation" default and you have to "opt out". 2. Talking about a 100% inheritance "tax" so parents can't leave their possessions to children.

Talk about fascism, most people can't even see it coming.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#174

Post by ineedasername »

lupire wrote: post #135
leetcrew wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People died from consuming THC carts that were tainted with Vitamin E acetate. Otherwise, weed products have not killed anyone ever. there are also concerns about microbial contamination with weed that is improperly grown/processed. this is exactly why weed ought to be legal but regulated. people engaged in grey market sales are performing an end run around the new safety regulations.

Is microbial contamination of weed more dangerous than contamination of vegetables?

With vegetables they are part of a regulated legal industry that has the ability to perform nation-wide awareness initiatives & recalls if there is some form of contamination.

And events like that also represents a significant financial loss to the producers, which itself acts as a form of accountability above & beyond regulatory penalties that might apply.

Basically, it doesn't matter if microbial contamination of weed isn't any more dangerous than for vegetables because current agricultural products have a remediation process in place to mitigate the danger, a process that doesn't exist for unregulated weed.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#175

Post by creato »

failwhaleshark wrote: post #155

Why is this such a rarity these days? My grandfather was an AP (MP) for decades and never shot at anyone, despite handling uncountable hairy/critical situations with individuals trained in killing. Shoot first and ask questions never? Deescalation and self-control should be job #1 along with verbal/social skills to solve problems before jumping to the nuclear option out of fear.

I'm not sure about entire departments, but for individual officers, it's not rare. Many if not most police officers never fire their weapon on duty for their entire careers.

For some perspective, there are around a million police officers in the US (https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=249).

A lot of police shooting incidents have made the national news in recent years, but I can think of tens of such incidents over a decade.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#176

Post by AlexC04 »

misiti3780 wrote: post #79
AtNightWeCode wrote: post #17

Good for Newark! But, from what I understand, they gave the cops better training and got better result. That is how education works.

Sam Harris has a new, very interesting podcast with Rener Gracie about police training and how inadequate it is across the entire United States. Officers in California get one - 4 hour course every two years to learn how to subdue criminals, and of the 4 hours, only one is actually spent training, the other three are instruction. Rener Gracie is obviously famous for Brazilian jiu-jitsu but he also trains police on ho…

[flagged]

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#177

Post by dfrankow »

creato wrote: post #175
failwhaleshark wrote: post #155

Why is this such a rarity these days? My grandfather was an AP (MP) for decades and never shot at anyone, despite handling uncountable hairy/critical situations with individuals trained in killing. Shoot first and ask questions never? Deescalation and self-control should be job #1 along with verbal/social skills to solve problems before jumping to the nuclear option out of fear.

I'm not sure about entire departments, but for individual officers, it's not rare. Many if not most police officers never fire their weapon on duty for their entire careers. For some perspective, there are around a million police officers in the US ( https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=dcdetail&iid=249 ). A lot of police shooting incidents have made the national news in recent years, but I can think of tens of such inci…

Police kill about 1000-1200 people per year in the U.S., depending on who's counting. See for example the Washington Post data. So it's not just tens over a decade.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#178

Post by logicslave »

failwhaleshark wrote: post #170
logicslave wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because criminals have alot of guns

That seems oversimplified. Do you have any data about the trends of gun possession by criminals or gun crime related to attacks on police? There are also a lot of innocent people being shot too, or the visibility of it has increased. Edit: also, could it be police are less trained or more fearful than in the past?

I'm a highly educated individual, commonly read dense scientific works, philosophy, political science etc. Its my opinion that violent crime, and especially brazen violent crime is just flat out more common. Police are more frequently in life threatening situations. The demands on them to act perfectly are enormous. And so we see mistakes, broadly painted as racism. Its a cancerous thought framework, and it threatens the law and order of a civilized nation.

But the video that is coming out is making it clear to the common people, that despite what the media says, you can see for yourself what occurs. The narrative can only be held for so long before too much video evidence to the contrary piles up.

George Floyd robbed a women by holding his gun to her pregnant stomach.

Duante Wright robbed a girl by choking her, holding her at gun point, for 800$

Adam Toledo was known in his neighborhood as "Lil Homicide"

The 16 year old girl shot recently was running at people swinging a knife.

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#179

Post by throwawaysea »

bpodgursky wrote: post #113
AtNightWeCode wrote: post #17

Good for Newark! But, from what I understand, they gave the cops better training and got better result. That is how education works.

It's more complicated than that. They disbanded the entire department -- breaking the police union in the process, and then hired far _more_ (but somewhat lower-paid) police than before. The new, larger, but reformed department has done dramatically better than before. So there's really something for everyone -- breaking the union was important, _increasing_ funding was important, but also increased de-escalation tra…

As another comment noted, that was Camden. There’s also more to that story - the city significantly stepped up its surveillance of public spaces (https://www.insider.com/inside-camden-new-jerseys-high-tech-...). Personally I think using technology to ensure public safety, with the right safeguards to prevent government abuses, is both acceptable and very possible. However, the anti policing activists are now against the Camden model - they initially held it up as evidence that defunding works but quickly changed opinion when more details came out (that funding simply shifted to the county level). You can find an example of arguments against Camden’s surveillance model at https://jacobinmag.com/2020/07/camden-new-jersey-police-refo...

Re: Newark cops, with reform, didn't fire a single shot in 2020

#180

Post by logicslave »

I'm a highly educated individual, commonly read dense scientific works, philosophy, political science etc. Its my opinion that violent crime, and especially brazen violent crime is just flat out more common. Police are more frequently in life threatening situations. The demands on them to act perfectly are enormous. And so we see mistakes, broadly painted as racism. Its a cancerous thought framework, and it threatens the law and order of a civilized nation. But the video that is coming out is making it clear to the common people, that despite what the media says, you can see for yourself what occurs. The narrative can only be held for so long before too much video evidence to the contrary piles up.

George Floyd robbed a women by holding his gun to her pregnant stomach.

Duante Wright robbed a girl by choking her, holding her at gun point, for 800$

Adam Toledo was known in his neighborhood as "Lil Homicide"

The 16 year old girl shot recently was running at people swinging a knife.

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