How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany • Hacker News Board

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#191

Post by Nimitz14 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #134

gigatexal wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. In Portland where I lived we didn’t make enough to live in the nicer parts of town so we lived in the north east near Gresham and crime was a problem out there. Lots of gang violence. My comment was a bit flippant. But it was something I thought about from time to time. Here not at all.

Well, for some additional anecdata: I've been mugged/attacked twice as much in Berlin (where I live) than I was in Detroit (where I grew up). I think perhaps the perception of risk in the US is blown way out of proportion due to the media frenzy around shootings, which are still pretty rare overall in the US. If you consume mass media, you will generally overestimate the risk by several orders of magnitude. (This is,…

Ridiculous statement. The homocide rate is so much higher in the US. Hard to believe anything you say.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#192

Post by yardie » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #74

sdevonoes wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that software developers in Europe are heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's something in which European companies "are better" than US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).

Not true, 25 vacation days per year is the norm in Austria and most of Europe, anything above that and you're in a privileged position, and most dev contracts have statements where any potential overtime is covered by you salary and not paid extra. And overtime does happen especially during crunches for releases (yeah, i know management sucks but it sucks everywhere I looked in Austria). Maybe you can show me where I…

I worked in France and vacation was 28 days for us, 2.333 days/month.

Overtime does happen but French law requires I be able to recover my time (RTT). In my experience there is a mad rush to use up that time before 31/12 so you'll see an additional holiday season around Nov-Dec. Else, it goes away and that time is lost to the fiscal year.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#193

Post by kazen44 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

distances wrote: post #136

dcolkitt wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I should have been clearer. I'm not trying to litigate the US vs. Europe debate, which I think has been discussed many times. My question more was about within Europe, the relative attractiveness of software vs other professional fields. Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US equivalent. That would suggest that other skilled professions…

All skilled professions have lower pay in Europe, there isn't a "get rich" path. Doctors usually earn more but nowhere near US levels. For me, I can say I didn't consider salary when choosing my field. It's just not a common concern, you're expected to study something you're good at and would enjoy doing. Medical and law were definitely not even remote thoughts for me. It was a happy accident that software engineers…

Also, it is not just about me being able to afford a proper lifestyle. I want the people with less paying jobs which are still considered vital (caretakers for instance) to also have a nice life without too much worry or abhorrent poverty.

The US is very individualistic in comparison, and in my opinion it is not doing well in this regard. Things like crime, violence etc all increase when people are pushed into poverty.

Wealth should not be the absolute measure of a person in society, because that would mean the market would decide the value a person brings to society, which is the wrong take on things in my opinion. Mainly because not everything should be handled by the free market. (healthcare for instance, should not be dictated by market forces).

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#194

Post by kazen44 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

galangalalgol wrote: post #59

dcolkitt wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to rehash the many long debates about whether it's better to be a SWE in Europe or America. There are arguments both ways, and it's been pretty well discussed. My interest is largely orthogonal to that discussion. Assuming you're not leaving the continent, why would anyone (besides those who are very passionate about software) choose to be a European SWE instead of a European actuary?

Because money wasn't the deciding factor? When I became a programmer we didn't have the term software engineer, and we were reviled for our lack of social skills and poorly paid. I miss those days. All my coworkers were motivated by love of the job. If you wanted to make money you went into banking or finance or law.

This argument goes for a lot of jobs btw, not just SWE.

Healthcare is a major example. Most people in the netherlands i know who work in healthcare do so because they want to help people, not to get rich.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#195

Post by IdiocyInAction » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:02 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #140

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

Well, seniors can make like 70-80k€ where I live, which is like the 3rd percentile in my country. Still true though, the salaries are not great compared to the US.

Is Canada that much better though? I briefly considered it but I determined that the high rents and not so high wages would not be worth it for a move.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#196

Post by cyminum » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:04 PM UTC

jakub_g wrote: post #185

light_hue_1 wrote: post #140

Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued. Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than that in the US. I don't have a single…

1) In Europe you don't get unexpected medical bills for tens/hundreds thousands of dollars when you have some medical issue. 2) Your kids won't get shot in the school. 3) You don't have to drive 20 minutes to the closest store to buy bread and milk. 4) I have 35d of paid vacation, while AFAICT in US you're lucky if you get 20. I'd get a brain melt or die from overworking if I had any less vacation days than now. I've…

1) That almost certainly will not happen with the health insurance as a software engineer.

2) An average of three children die per year in school shootings, giving odds of roughly 1 in 800,000 (hard to tell with such tiny sample sizes). Your child is more likely to be struck by lightning and far more likely to die in a fire or car accident. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/10/11/lockdown-...

3) That is just not true unless you live in a rural area. I don't know where you get that from. Denser cities have groceries often within walking distance, and most suburbs will have plenty of grocery stores within a 5-10 minute drive.

4) Unlimited PTO is extremely common for tech companies in the US. It's not uncommon for me to see people taking 7+ weeks.

There are issues in the US of course, but I really would not completely trust low-effort media narratives. There's a reason people come here.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#197

Post by kazen44 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:05 PM UTC

frockington1 wrote: post #58

estaseuropano wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average gross salaries, IT is the second line. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1789/umfrage/... These are not stunning by US standards, but important to consider that life costs are very different, e.g. you get actually significantly less than this gross salary in your bank account but in return you have unemployment insurance, free school and university for your kids (or super cheap evening masters fo…

If you are a developer in the US you are probably receiving all of that except college tuition. Worth the extra 60K/year in my opinion but I see the appeal of having the option to live off of social programs if needed

it is also not about you being able to afford those things. It is about the rest of society and the people around you also being able to afford those things. To allow people from poor backgrounds to go to university and contribute on the intellectual level they posses, it is so that people working on some of the nasties and most dangerous jobs that still require doing. (heavy industry, most healthcare jobs) can live without the desperation of poverty.

Some people might simply not be in the luck in regards to intelligency, luck, wealth etc compared to you, but that does not mean they should be held back by it in my opinion.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#198

Post by IdiocyInAction » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:06 PM UTC

jcfrei wrote: post #52

zmachinaz wrote: post #37

I always thought that the top talent is actually leaving Germany to seek better opportunities elsewhere (already since 20y+). Main destinations Switzerland, UK, ...

Swiss labor market is tiny, so not much capacity there. UK no longer in the EU so getting a job there is harder I think. US is across the pond, might be too far away for a lot of people. So I'd say the labor market is a lot less flexible than you might think - lots of top talent still wants to work where they grew up / where their family is.

It shouldn't be hard at all to get a visa for the UK - the main requirement is a job that pays more than 25k GBP I think.

Aside from FAANG and Fintechs, I don't think that London is that much better than Munich or Berlin, especially after rent. The rest of the UK was really bad salary-wise.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#199

Post by netrus » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

wink wrote: post #116

marcosdumay wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially when the populational trends imply that demand for housing will go down on the distant future. Future performance is almost guaranteed to decouple from past performance at some point.

Your points are technically correct, the best kind of correct. I'm not looking at any undetermined future point in time, if I'm ranting about housing prices it might be not unrealistic that I'd like to buy one in the next few years - and I've seen absolutely zero indication that the prices would suddenly drop by 20-40% to the point where I'd call them reasonable, like 15 years ago.

This chart should be far more prominent than it is in most discussions about housing in Germany:

https://www.interhyp.de/ratgeber/was-muss-ich-wissen/zinsen/...

The incredible increase in house prices tracks a dramatic decline in interest rates. Interest rates were at 1% last year, below inflation! I have no idea how interest rates will change in the next few years, but I do know they will not decline at the same rate as over the past 10 years. As soon as they go up, the prices will decline.

Re: How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany

#200

Post by kazen44 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

jcfrei wrote: post #52

zmachinaz wrote: post #37

I always thought that the top talent is actually leaving Germany to seek better opportunities elsewhere (already since 20y+). Main destinations Switzerland, UK, ...

Swiss labor market is tiny, so not much capacity there. UK no longer in the EU so getting a job there is harder I think. US is across the pond, might be too far away for a lot of people. So I'd say the labor market is a lot less flexible than you might think - lots of top talent still wants to work where they grew up / where their family is.

this. People are a lot more bound to their local community compared to many americans in my experience.

Germany, (and most european countries in general) have far more local levels of distinct cultures (dialect, traditions, community etc). People do not easily want to leave the place they grew up in.