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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

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Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#91

Post by unyttigfjelltol »

neilwilson wrote: post #37
wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

Moreover life imprisonment is far more of a punishment. The individual has to get up every day and contemplate what they have done - with no way to end that other than the passage of time and the hope of commutation. If you're from a part of the world where the death penalty was consigned to history decades ago, it's quite astonishing that a supposedly civilised nation would defend it. The USA has some odd hangups.

This comment is internally inconsistent-- favoring a more barbaric penalty of life incarceration does not mean a nation has a higher morality.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#92

Post by otabdeveloper4 »

capableweb wrote: post #65
cies wrote: post #36

This is very US-centric. > at least 4% of people on death row are innocent. I expect in Scandinavia these numbers are different. But they dont have death penalty. From the news I learn that US cops also kill innocent people in the street. And it's military wages illegal wars killing 100s of 1000s overseas. I think the US has a weird relation with violence. The death penalty and how it uses it is merely a symptom.

> This is very US-centric. Yeah, considering the US have a bunch of problems related to violence (mass shootings, overzealous police force, invading other countries left and right), it makes sense that other violent processes are also problematic in the same environment. I agree with you death penalty is merely a symptom of something else in the whole system of the country. Makes it extra weird when you consider how…

> how prude the US is when it comes to sexuality

This hasn't been true for decades.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#93

Post by rmcpherson »

Hard_Space wrote: post #41
rswail wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This "debate" has been over in all other nations that the US likes to be compared for years. It is similar to the "tough on crime" incarceration "debate" in the US, where perverse incentives and political expediency has led to the US being the highest-per-capita incarcerator in the world. Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. The US crimin…

I don't know. Even the constitution acknowledges the possibility of truths that are 'self-evident'. I remember when the Guantanamo torture scandals emerged in the 2000s, how various political actors attempted to say 'Let's not get hot under the collar about this - let's put it on the table and talk it through.' For me, there are some things that just don't warrant debate, and encompass such deep-seated truths about h…

“We hold these truths to be self evident...” is from the Declaration of Independence. It does not appear in the Constitution.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#94

Post by throwaway3699 »

chki wrote: post #77
spoonjim wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a murderer deserve another breath?

Because I care deeply about everybody – no matter what they have done. Because forgiveness and love are my core values, even if it doesn't usually show up in my day to day life. Because revenge is always bad. Torturing somebody no matter their crime would go fundamentally against those few things that I feel very deeply about – not that different from loving my family or caring about the longterm wellbeing of humanit…

What if your love and forgiveness allow a killer to strike again? I share similar values but I'm prepared to compromise on them if necessary. Even incarceration is a compromise. Values are ideals, not absolutes.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#95

Post by nabla9 »

Scientific knowledge that connects brain injuries to violent crime is an even better reason to end the death penalty.

Traumatic brain injury damages self-regulation and changes social behavior. Uninhibited or impulsive behavior, including problems controlling anger and unacceptable sexual behavior, leads to crime. The concept of insanity used in the US criminal system is based on science 130 years ago, combined with the religious concept of sin and soul. The thinking is that if a person knows what they do is wrong, they could choose to not do it is BS. With brain injury person can lose that ability.

Damaged Brains and the Death Penalty https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/stories/damaged-brains-and-the-...

>In another study, of 14 juveniles sentenced to death, the researchers found that all had suffered head trauma, most in car accidents but many by beatings as well. 12 had suffered brutal physical abuse, 5 of those sodomized by relatives.

Traumatic brain injury: a potential cause of violent crime? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6171742/

Traumatic Brain Injury in Prisons and Jails: An Unrecognized Problem https://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/pdf/prisoner_tbi_pr...

>According to jail and prison studies, 25-87% of inmates report having experienced a head injury or TBI 2-4 as compared to 8.5% in a general population reporting a history of TBI.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#96

Post by spoonjim »

anoncake wrote: post #73
spoonjim wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does a murderer deserve another breath?

They're human. Revenge has no place in civilized society.

“Revenge has no place in a civilized society” is just an opinion. Mine is different. I don’t believe a society is civilized if it treats murderers with anything less than the most extreme vengeance.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#98

Post by fighterpilot »

throwaway3699 wrote: post #81
fighterpilot wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if they did the murder because of a brain tumor messing up their impulse control ability? Humans are just complicated machines that go wrong sometimes. I do however share your emotional position and it would make me feel better to see (actual) murderers get the death penalty.

They're still a danger to society. If we start crossing into the metaphysical then we'd have to make excuses for peadophiles having 'messed up impulse control' too. But as another comment pointed out, we do account for this.

> They're still a danger to society

Which is one of the reasons why we have incarceration, which I believe is absolutely necessary in some form in a case where a person is a danger to others (whether or not it's "their fault").

> we'd have to make excuses for peadophiles having 'messed up impulse control' too.

It's not an excuse, it's more a description of reality. And it would apply to child abusers as well, as well as other criminals, yes.

This isn't an argument against "punishing" these people. It's an argument for being clear about why we are "punishing" them, to make sure it's not a revenge motive (which is a heavily biologically driven motive in itself)

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#99

Post by Traster »

I want to preface what I'm about to say with: I'm against the death penalty. However, innocent people die every day, they're hit by cars, they're shot by police, they commit suicide. If your argument is that you want to save the lives of innocent poeple then you should be having a discussion about reducing the use of cars.

If your argument isn't about the state's role, then what is the distinction between these things. 4% doesn't actually seem like a high rate to me and it's not a high percentage of a relatively small number in the first place.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#100

Post by xdennis »

rswail wrote: post #15
tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

This "debate" has been over in all other nations that the US likes to be compared for years. It is similar to the "tough on crime" incarceration "debate" in the US, where perverse incentives and political expediency has led to the US being the highest-per-capita incarcerator in the world. Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. The US crimin…

Just because it's banned doesn't mean the debate is over: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-BytxHbenQyQ/V_O2hw4mUXI/AAAAAAAA8...

Some western countries have respectably high numbers: France 50%, UK 48%, Holland 42%.

Not that the USA wants to be compared to us, but here in Romania it's at 91% and we still don't have it. (I suspect that romantic notions of Vlad the Impaler's time has something to do with the percentage.)

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