The real reason to end the death penalty • Hacker News Board

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#51

Post by _hl_ » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:06 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #21

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

I think there is a somewhat reasonable argument that a punishment should mirror the crime, and any less than inhuman and barbaric to the inhuman and barbaric lacks actual justice? I’m not saying I agree, I don’t personally support the death sentence, but if you’re actually interested in changing peoples minds it’s good to know where they’re coming from, and why they may not find your argument compelling. I personally…

I'm not from the US, so my knowledge on the death penalty is quite limited. But I clicked on a link posted below listing executions in Texas, and I was shocked to see that the most recent execution was last year for a crime committed back in 1993. Why?? You've already locked the guy up for almost three decades, what possible benefit is there to executing him now?

I get that he ruined (well, ended) someones life, but what does society gain from ruining his life in turn, to the point of what feels like mental torture: Being locked up for such a long time, all the while knowing that you will eventually just be executed.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#52

Post by BrianOnHN » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:06 AM UTC

saagarjha wrote: post #5

This is the obvious reason, but of course there are many more: executions are quite expensive, they don't seem to actually deter crime, they're fundamentally pessimistic ("this person will never be useful to society"). Plus, they're kind of unnecessarily cruel: if we wanted to execute people painlessly we could just pump a room full of nitrogen and let the person drift off into unconsciousness and death relatively qu…

> opting for spectacles

All while insisting on the humanness of those sweet pharmaceuticals.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#53

Post by bruceb » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:07 AM UTC

Another solution is having a no doubt standard needed for the death penalty as opposed to a beyond a reasonable doubt standard.

No doubt standard would require some set elements. DNA + visual recording + electronic records.

I used to be anti death penalty but would be ok with it under a no doubt standard. Not for vengeance but simply society can spend the money on other things instead of spending money housing and feeding individuals who have caused such horrific pain on others.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#54

Post by fighterpilot » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:07 AM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #17

I have very strong beliefs about the death penalty. I believe it is the only just punishment for murder; that ALL murderers should be executed; that anything less than execution is a grave miscarriage of justice for a crime that is so horrible the mind cannot even wrap around it. I also think that pain should be part of the death penalty... that a murderer doesn’t deserve a quick and painless death but rather a healt…

What if they did the murder because of a brain tumor messing up their impulse control ability? Humans are just complicated machines that go wrong sometimes. I do however share your emotional position and it would make me feel better to see (actual) murderers get the death penalty.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#55

Post by antman » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:07 AM UTC

tompccs wrote: post #6

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

Society, businesses and families fail when there is no ground truth, right or wrong, historical knowledge and are based on the most recent FUD or feelgoodery.

Arguments and negotiations need to have common grounds on how thing are interpreted. Else the most immoral person flourishes.

Me following this US debate from the other side of the world I mostly see it framed as “the innocent people getting killed” and not the “immoral to kill” debate as per this article. I don’s see it getting anywhere.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#56

Post by short_sells_poo » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:07 AM UTC

rswail wrote: post #15

tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

This "debate" has been over in all other nations that the US likes to be compared for years. It is similar to the "tough on crime" incarceration "debate" in the US, where perverse incentives and political expediency has led to the US being the highest-per-capita incarcerator in the world. Framing the death penalty debate around "innocent people get killed" will not change the partisan/class perceptions. The US crimin…

Very much agreed. The left and intellectuals have won the debate in most (all?) of the west and the US policies are widely considered barbaric, inhumane and corrupt. The current state of affairs in the US is unfortunately a testament to the US society.

Having said that, the US is quite a specific case and the truth is that the current approach of the left doesn't seem to work there. Progress is being made, but as an outsider, there seems to be too much partisanship on both sides. Too much us versus them. There is as much derogatory and hostile attitude in the left leaning forums as the right leaning ones, with a small sliver of moderates who get lost in the noise.

I can't claim to have a solution to this. The US seems to be a feudal society at this point, where a large portion of the serfs are actively undermining efforts to lift them from their serfdom, and a large portion of the liberators consider the serfs uneducated peasants who refuse to accept what's good for them. They are both led by a political elite whose incentives are to maintain (even entrench) the status quo because it gives them an easily manipulated voter base and a clear enemy to rally against.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#57

Post by hedberg10 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #21

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

I think there is a somewhat reasonable argument that a punishment should mirror the crime, and any less than inhuman and barbaric to the inhuman and barbaric lacks actual justice? I’m not saying I agree, I don’t personally support the death sentence, but if you’re actually interested in changing peoples minds it’s good to know where they’re coming from, and why they may not find your argument compelling. I personally…

You can never 'match' the crime. Even if you go justicing around 'an eye for an eye' style, the perp will always have taken the initiative. You can never get that back. Everything you do is just a reaction.

That is what makes crime so heinous.

So your focus should be prevention at any cost first and foremost, then justice as prevention (= rehabilitation) as well. Murdering a murderer is pretty solid prevention though, I give you that.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#58

Post by marcus_holmes » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

tompccs wrote: post #33

marcus_holmes wrote: post #24

[flagged]

49% of Brits would support the reintroduction of the death penalty. I suspect that the same is true across Europe and that you are living in a bubble. [0] [0] https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-dea...

"for the murder of a child" - this isn't about the death penalty. This is a "won't someone please think about the children" dog whistle to the "murder all the pedos" brigade.

Again, no-one is seriously suggesting bringing it back. My bubble is secure.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#59

Post by hntroll666 » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

> barbaric

Sorry, but that's exactly the kind of world we live in. The world simply is barbaric no matter what we would prefer. When people mess up a little bit, we put them through a process that, despite its massive inadequacy, is intended to rehabilitate them so that they can return to society. The death penalty is for when someone commits a crime so severe that they cannot ever return to society. If you are not able to think of this kind of situation, I suggest you may not be very familiar with the details of truly horrendous crimes. If we don't have the death penalty, we end up in the strange position of housing and feeding and providing medical care for the most harmful people in society at the expense of their victims.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#60

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 22, 2021, 10:10 AM UTC

marcus_holmes wrote: post #58

tompccs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

49% of Brits would support the reintroduction of the death penalty. I suspect that the same is true across Europe and that you are living in a bubble. [0] [0] https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-dea...

"for the murder of a child" - this isn't about the death penalty. This is a "won't someone please think about the children" dog whistle to the "murder all the pedos" brigade. Again, no-one is seriously suggesting bringing it back. My bubble is secure.

[deleted]