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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

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Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#71

Post by cies »

spoonjim wrote: post #30
monalmadmad wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe it is the only just punishment for murder; that ALL murderers should be executed; That's such a twisted mind you have there.

Why does a murderer deserve another breath?

Just lacked therapy. Murderer was a cop, and made a mistake. Murderer was provoked. Family of murderee forgives murderer. Murderee was merely an 3 months old embryo. Evidence not 100% conclusive. Murderer claims self defense.

I can continue. The world is messy. Black white thinking will not do it justice.

Not that I agree with these reasons in all circumstances. I just want to point out there are reasons to treat a murderer less harsh.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#72

Post by rvieira »

optimalsolver wrote: post #3

Of possible interest, Texas records death row inmates last words before execution. You can read them all here: https://www.tdcj.texas.gov/death_row/dr_executed_offenders.h... My favorite is Delbert Teague, Jr. who quoted the oath of the Knights of Solamnia from Dragonlance.

That hit hard. At the risk of sounding like a cliche softy, those statements made really sad, and then even sadder when I thought that all[0] of them must have also commited terrible crimes and caused suffering to so many people.

[0] - Well, at least 96% according to the OP.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#73

Post by anoncake »

spoonjim wrote: post #30
monalmadmad wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe it is the only just punishment for murder; that ALL murderers should be executed; That's such a twisted mind you have there.

Why does a murderer deserve another breath?

They're human. Revenge has no place in civilized society.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#74

Post by Zababa »

> But in practice the debate about the death penalty is not about whether it's ok to kill murderers. It's about whether it's ok to kill innocent people, because at least 4% of people on death row are innocent.

I think we should also quantify how many people are victims of recidivism. You could make the exact same argument but instead of protecting innocent people wrongly on the death row , you would argue to protect innocent people victims of recidivists murderers.

I've found a bit of data [0] from an article [1] which has 3 homicide among 92 paroled homicide offenders. That's a bit more than 3% which is not far from 4%. The data here is of "lower quality" (there's less people on a shorter timeframe) than the one quoted in the article [2]. However, that same article estimates a 4.1% false conviction rate but adds:

> The most charged question in this area is different: How many innocent defendants have been put to death (6)? We cannot estimate that number directly but we believe it is comparatively low. If the rate were the same as our estimate for false death sentences, the number of innocents executed in the United States in the past 35 y would be more than 50 (20). We do not believe that has happened.

So the article doesnt' support "at least 4% of people on the death row are innocent".

[0]: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Types-of-Recidivism-Amon...

[1]: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259809249_Criminal_...

[2]: https://www.pnas.org/content/111/20/7230

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#75

Post by bruceb »

capableweb wrote: post #65
cies wrote: post #36

This is very US-centric. > at least 4% of people on death row are innocent. I expect in Scandinavia these numbers are different. But they dont have death penalty. From the news I learn that US cops also kill innocent people in the street. And it's military wages illegal wars killing 100s of 1000s overseas. I think the US has a weird relation with violence. The death penalty and how it uses it is merely a symptom.

> This is very US-centric. Yeah, considering the US have a bunch of problems related to violence (mass shootings, overzealous police force, invading other countries left and right), it makes sense that other violent processes are also problematic in the same environment. I agree with you death penalty is merely a symptom of something else in the whole system of the country. Makes it extra weird when you consider how…

The US isn't that prudish compared to many nations.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#76

Post by pydry »

spoonjim wrote: post #26
nikbackm wrote: post #9

Even if there were no death penalty, spending 30+ years in prison while innocent does not seem like such a good deal either.

Sure, but death is worse, as evidenced by the vast majority of death row inmates who try to stall the process. Very few say “OK, just shoot me now.”

It's not as uncommon as you'd think:

https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90935&page=1

>More death-row inmates have been volunteering for their executions: Between 1993 and 2002, 75 volunteered for death, compared to the 22 consensual executions between 1977 and 1992. (Gary Gilmore, the first prisoner put to death after the Supreme Court reinstituted capital punishment in 1976, "volunteered" for his execution in 1977 because he did not want to live the rest of his life on death row.)

It's probably more an indictment of the torture they go through on death row than it is a signal that they all secretly have a death wish.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#77

Post by chki »

spoonjim wrote: post #30
monalmadmad wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe it is the only just punishment for murder; that ALL murderers should be executed; That's such a twisted mind you have there.

Why does a murderer deserve another breath?

Because I care deeply about everybody – no matter what they have done. Because forgiveness and love are my core values, even if it doesn't usually show up in my day to day life. Because revenge is always bad. Torturing somebody no matter their crime would go fundamentally against those few things that I feel very deeply about – not that different from loving my family or caring about the longterm wellbeing of humanity.

If that sounds irrational to you: That's because it is irrational. Whether we choose to end another persons life is fundamental in our understanding of life itself, which is highly subjective.

But your belief that we should kill other humans is also irrational and subjective.

Edit: Also this paragraph in your first answer

>> I also think that pain should be part of the death penalty... that a murderer doesn’t deserve a quick and painless death but rather a healthy period of searing agony to experience the anguish that they themselves wrought on another."

is actually terrifying to me. Even reading it causes me some physical discomfort.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#78

Post by ruph123 »

tompccs wrote: post #33
marcus_holmes wrote: post #24

[flagged]

49% of Brits would support the reintroduction of the death penalty. I suspect that the same is true across Europe and that you are living in a bubble. [0] [0] https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-dea...

> 49% of Brits would support the reintroduction of the death penalty

... for murdering a child. You forgot that part didn’t you? If you pull up the poll if death penalty should be reintroduced for all murderers only 32% are in support [0].

Please don’t pick and choose sources to make an argument which wasn’t even captured by the source. Also please don’t extrapolate to other countries like that. Us Europeans left the death Penalty behind a long time ago. This is not a thing anymore.

[0]: https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/should-the-dea...

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#79

Post by bluecalm »

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

This argument is useless because what inhuman and barbaric my means depends on your belief system. Abortion is inhuman and barbaric to significant % of the population and death penalty isn't. They use murder argument as well. Of course death penalty is not murder nor is abortion if you're honest about what the word means but here we are with those absolute statements about ethics.

If we just use this argument and don't try to establish general principles we end up with a pointless shouting contest.

For once I think the death penalty is at least worth considering from the utilitarian point of view (in our current system the consensus is that it's cheaper to keep someone in prison for life though but it might change in the future) as well as from revenge/restitution point of view as a lot of people strongly think someone doing deliberate great harm deserves to be killed.

One way or another it's not simple from either ethical nor practical point of view. Personally I consider death penalty as desirable penalty for some crimes but I would never vote for it as I have no faith in our politicians being able to implement it in a fair way and flawed justice system not to abuse it.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#80

Post by pfortuny »

wideareanetwork wrote: post #2

I think no other justification is needed to end the death penalty than “it’s inhuman and barbaric”. Even discussing other factors arguments and considerations dilutes the core point that’s it’s straight up wrong unethical and inhuman to murder others in the name of the law. Paul Graham has a valid point, but if you say “it’s wrong cause it’s inaccurate”, implies it’s right if it’s accurate. And it’s not... the death…

Ouch: things are not so clear-cut. What happens on a small ship?
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