Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable. There are issues - child care if a parent has to spen…
The criminal justice system already does this extensively. Often people are sentenced to community service. So I guess your question is really should this be extended to more low-level offenses like minor traffic violations? It's an interesting question. In Switzerland, for example, speeding above a certain level ceases to be a fixed fine and is instead a percentage of your income. I'm a fan of that. Fixed fines tend…
Bernie Madoff has died
371–380 of 406 posts
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#372After watching the movie "The Wizard of Lies", i changed my mind if Madoff. He was a prisoner of his own vice and it consumed him and killed his whole family
He brings to my mind the man who loses his job, but, too ashamed to tell his wife, continues to leave the house in his suit every morning, his wife not discovering the true situation until the house is foreclosed, at which point it is too late. A tragic figure, who unfortunately brings down others with him.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#373Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.
Corporations (which are usually the payer of fines for bad behavior) don't fear prison because they can't be physically imprisoned. You can't put Exxon in jail. And, lawmakers deliberately make it so damn hard to pierce the corporate liability veil and hold shareholders or directors personally liable for the corporation's actions. So, we need to both move more towards prison and start digging in to which actual peopl…
When a corporation runs over a town, why is the person or people "steering" the corporation not jailed?
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
> That’s not true. Most speculative investment promise revenues if they succeed. That wouldn't be speculative then (at least not completely) > For your last sentence, why would that be true? Because it's not a Ponzi scheme unless you are lying about the origin of the returns which you are giving to investors.
> That wouldn't be speculative then (at least not completely) Can you give an example of non crypto speculative investments which are not expected to produce revenues? That’s how 100% of business promise to eventually provide returns. Even real estate is rents. Collectibles such as sports cards and art are the one exception category I can think of. > Because it's not a Ponzi scheme unless you are lying about the orig…
That's not a Ponzi scheme, that's a market bubble.
There's nothing gained by misappropriating existing jargon just to try and lend more credence to an assertion that a thing is bad.
Imagine if someone were trying to argue that a MacBook's motherboard is just one big integrated circuit because it's a circuit (natch), and solder has been used to integrate it all together. On the one hand, sure I can why someone who isn't a computer techie might see it that way. On the other hand, that's simply not what that term means.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're agreeing with me and the grandparent comment.
It's not some kind of vague consensus, just like it's not some vague consensus that gold coins are worth more than copper coins.
What do you think markets are? They're a method for people to come to a vague consensus about the value of something.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#376Sounds like I'm gonna have a beer and rewatch "The Other Guys" tonight
Why?
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#377Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this may create asymmetries between risk/reward for those (real) people making the decisions. Think about it with a sports analogy. If I cheat and take performance enhancing drugs, there’s huge potential upside: I can drastically increase my salary. If the consequence was spread to the team rather than concentrated on the individual it encourages the individual to take that risk. Maybe the team would be force…
> I think this may create asymmetries between risk/reward for those (real) people making the decisions. Those asymmetries wouldn't be new, because the corporation as a construct already shields the real people making the decisions, along with the jurisprudence of slaps on the wrist. Are companies held accountable for their "externalities" today, like mass foreclosures in real estate, exploitative labour conditions, p…
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#378Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why try to stop it? Pretty sure a sufficiently enabled and incentivized prosecutor will be able to find the actual culprits. "Discovery" exists as a legal process after all. Sham boards/executives only are issues if the prosecution itself is a sham, more concerned with the appearance of the thing than deterrence.
My interpretation of the GP was that if companies are guilty of wrongdoing, boards and executives should be imprisoned without any additional burden of proof required to establish individual culpability. This sounds somewhat appealing, as how can these people _not_ be responsible in some way? Otherwise, no need to single out the board.
But perhaps the shareholders should bear responsibility as well.
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You can't put Exxon in jail. If a corporation is a legal person with inalienable rights (as the SCOTUS seems to have decided on), but is intangible and immortal at the same time, what can you do? Any of the below: * freezing assets (=~ reclamation) * seizing accounts (=~ civil forfeiture) * suspend a business license (=~ locking them up) * introduce a revenue cap (=~ prison labour) * remove lobbyists (=~ losing vot…
Doesn't it have a different effect, though? Let's assume you have a company like Volkswagen and the corporate executives have decided they play the game of not getting informed about some really shady business practices which are helping the company to earn good money. Would it make sense for Germany to punish Volkswagen by any of the means you mention, thus weakening the company in relation to foreign car makers, vs…
All for it, if it actually happened anywhere in recent history. I'm not being facetious, but I'm not aware of any examples or am failing to recall them. Do you have any in mind?
> the problem would have been corrected.
I'm not so sure. Suppose the company made massive profits (or avoided capital expenditure, or limited losses) by cheating at something like emissions. Then, the C-level execs get fired, their assets get seized and they're barred from holding administrative functions again. Did the company not still gain massive profits? Do you think it wouldn't be able to find another set of fall guys, if it pays them enough? Wouldn't the company do it again, if the risk is offset to a bunch of figureheads? Your suggestion would only rule out bad behaviour by those same actors in the future. In a more charitable reading: it would lead to better outcomes than today's rules.
Meanwhile, the damage through emissions and particular matter has been done. According to the WHO (0), about 25 people died of particulate and ambient pollution per 100k people in Germany in 2016. That puts it at 2000 people country wide that year. Did Volkswagen kill anyone by doing this? If so, how many of those could have been avoided had they not cheated on their tests? What about the impact on climate change? How were these problems theoretically addressed by seizing C-level execs' assets without giving them jail time?
> Would it make sense for Germany to punish Volkswagen by any of the means you mention, thus weakening the company in relation to foreign car makers
Yes, because the infractions were socially destructive. After all, the German government's first responsibility is towards the greater good for its citizens. According to Volkswagen's website (1), 44% of their employees or 292,378 people work for them in Germany itself. Directly, of course. Applying a fairly generous, tenfold knock-on effect, less than 4% of the total population - 2% of the active population - works for or with them. According to CNN (2), it represented 2.7% of Germany's GDP.
Also, it would hurt and stimulate competition. Not being able to pay out dividends for a year due to revenue caps, not being able to sell products in Germany that year due to cheating at exchaust measurements, etc might change shareholder voting and investment behaviour. It would damage the brand's image, reduce its ability to attract employees, etc. Maybe market forces would then finally be able to correct bad behaviours. Today's "cost of doing business" slaps on the wrist simply don't seem to have any corrective effect whatsoever.
> you also can't do the comparison you are making.
I was being hyperbolic for effect. When staying within the confines of pragmatism, surely some kind of revision to corporate/criminal law (or its enforcement) is warranted. Most people don't get the death penalty, either, or go to jail. Hell, apparently some people don't even get speeding tickets! The same would probably go for corporate actors even if the consequences were steeper.
[0] https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/indicators/indicator-detai...
[1] https://annualreport2018.volkswagenag.com/group-management-r...
[2] https://money.cnn.com/2015/09/22/news/economy/volkswagen-ger...
Re: Bernie Madoff has died
#380Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this may create asymmetries between risk/reward for those (real) people making the decisions. Think about it with a sports analogy. If I cheat and take performance enhancing drugs, there’s huge potential upside: I can drastically increase my salary. If the consequence was spread to the team rather than concentrated on the individual it encourages the individual to take that risk. Maybe the team would be force…
If workers had to worry about the ethics of their employer getting the whole company in trouble, that would be a good thing in the sense of drying up the labor pool for dubiously run companies. On the other hand, the Justice Dept doesn't always land on the side of justice, so smaller companies could end up victims of abuse of the court system in the name of competitive advantage.
The same already goes for things like IP and trademark, so that's a fair bet. Good point.