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Bernie Madoff has died

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Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#81

Post by cletus »

nemacol wrote: post #59
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable. There are issues - child care if a parent has to spen…

The criminal justice system already does this extensively. Often people are sentenced to community service.

So I guess your question is really should this be extended to more low-level offenses like minor traffic violations?

It's an interesting question. In Switzerland, for example, speeding above a certain level ceases to be a fixed fine and is instead a percentage of your income. I'm a fan of that. Fixed fines tend to discriminate against the poor disproportionately.

I can imagine there are many people who would be better off and would prefer 2-4 hours of community service over a $100 fine. So that should certainly be an option instead of paying the fine.

Yeah I think the idea probably does have merit.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#82

Post by tim333 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #79
tim333 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin isn't really a ponzi scheme though, just an asset that gets bid up. In a ponzi you pay in x and are promised x+50% or some such and the scheme fails when there isn't money to pay out x+50%. With bitcoin you buy for price x and sell for price y which may be higher or lower. Different thing. It can't fail, just go up or down in price.

So your theory is that unlike Ponzi members, bitcoin buyers aren't paying in $x hoping to take $x+500% out in the future? Intriguing.

I hope lots of things I own will go up in value. That doesn't make them ponzi schemes.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#83

Post by finikytou »

obmelvin wrote: post #66
finikytou wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no he did not. 75% of what he robbed was recovered also. Wouldnt call it ruining life... if he did steal to "normal people" that is to a much smaller percentage than he robbed the rich ones. thousands of people that are still in wall street today robbed poor people and are still trading/working in the industry today. While I am not elevating him I am elevating the fact that he rot in jail for robbing the rich. Just l…

So, it's ok to steal from people as long as most of them are rich? And, it's ok to steal as long as you only steal 25% of it?

I never said it was ok. I said he is in jail because he stole the rich. If he stole the poor he'd be on the trading desk of some bank in wall street. Who is in jail today for the subprime crisis?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#84

Post by hudon »

tim333 wrote: post #71
hudon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold is found in nature. We can’t manufacture it or change its atomic number. Bitcoin is human code run on human machines. If society or the powers that be see fit to generate infinite Bitcoin, they can (ie forks are political power plays and we can’t control how the powerful will coopt Bitcoin in the future).

>If society or the powers that be see fit to generate infinite Bitcoin But not real ones. It's like saying you can make infinite Mona Lisas with a colour photocopier.

No. Real ones. The supply cap is just decided by a coded algorithm. That algorithm can change and the social consensus can and will accept that change. Democracies moved off of the gold standard didn’t they?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#85

Post by rcxdude »

ForHackernews wrote: post #79
tim333 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin isn't really a ponzi scheme though, just an asset that gets bid up. In a ponzi you pay in x and are promised x+50% or some such and the scheme fails when there isn't money to pay out x+50%. With bitcoin you buy for price x and sell for price y which may be higher or lower. Different thing. It can't fail, just go up or down in price.

So your theory is that unlike Ponzi members, bitcoin buyers aren't paying in $x hoping to take $x+500% out in the future? Intriguing.

Well, probably the biggest thing is it's not promised, and any returns are not being fabricated (a ponzi scheme will generally promise X% return, and will claim to have made X% on the invested money, when in reality they have made no return. When you buy bitcoin you get some bitcoin, which may or may not go up in price, but it's clear what you do and don't have).

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#86

Post by supercanuck »

tim333 wrote: post #61
soneca wrote: post #33

Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.

Bitcoin isn't really a ponzi scheme though, just an asset that gets bid up. In a ponzi you pay in x and are promised x+50% or some such and the scheme fails when there isn't money to pay out x+50%. With bitcoin you buy for price x and sell for price y which may be higher or lower. Different thing. It can't fail, just go up or down in price.

What about tether?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#87

Post by ForHackernews »

tim333 wrote: post #71
hudon wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gold is found in nature. We can’t manufacture it or change its atomic number. Bitcoin is human code run on human machines. If society or the powers that be see fit to generate infinite Bitcoin, they can (ie forks are political power plays and we can’t control how the powerful will coopt Bitcoin in the future).

>If society or the powers that be see fit to generate infinite Bitcoin But not real ones. It's like saying you can make infinite Mona Lisas with a colour photocopier.

Who decides what is a "real" bitcoin? This is the point parent commenter is making. The only difference between Bitcoin OG and Bitcoin Cash or Segwit or any of the others is some kind of vague consensus that everyone agrees to pretend one magic bean is more special and valuable than the other, less-special magic bean with the same name.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#88

Post by ghodith »

user-the-name wrote: post #60
mumblemumble wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is something that applies to all sorts of situations, and is in no way a litmus test for whether or not something is a Ponzi scheme. For it to be a Ponzi scheme, you first have to have some sort of centralized control of the ledger so that you can lie to people about the volume of assets they have in your care. And already we have made a complete departure from what Bitcoin is and how it works.

But there is a lie. The lie is the supposed value in USD of the bitcoins you hold.

I mean, if the person can transfer them right now for that amount in USD how is it a lie?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#89

Post by nemacol »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #73
nemacol wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that a system of public service / community service requirements instead of fines would be better for common offenses? Without any real research I have often thought that instead of fines for parking violations, noise complaints, (other misdemeanors) etc - having someone spend time instead of money would make those sorts of punishments more equitable. There are issues - child care if a parent has to spen…

I do, it would also be more fair than fines because it wouldn't be worse on the poor. I also think we should have corporal punishment, not because I believe in it per se, but because I think it is more humane than prison and would satisfy societies need for punishing the guilty.

I can see an argument that poor folks have less free time - if someone worked a couple part time jobs, has kids or other family that rely on them, several hours picking up litter is a pretty big deal. Vs my 9-5 M-F job, no dependants, etc. several hours picking up litter is a bummer or inconvenience.

I think that corporal punishment proposal is batshit insane.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#90

Post by lordnacho »

I remember when this happened, I was running a hedge fund. Supposedly he was doing collars (split-strike conversions) to make this money, but it just seemed implausible to me at the time, since I traded options. I figured he just punted futures, nice and easy way to sorta hug the index (I hadn't seen his "returns"), maybe Martingale it and get lucky until you're not so lucky.

But then it turned out he wasn't doing anything at all.

This was a bit of an insight for me, because I'd been through investor meetings, and they ask a lot of things. Mostly the wrong things, but they do ask things that you need to actually have had a fund to answer, like "who does your audits". So I was pretty amazed when it turned out he got away with some DIY audit (through a friend?) or something like that.

One thing that did seem to happen immediately was that investors seemed to play it safe. Not great for little funds. I think a lot of them were spooked by some quite big names getting scammed.

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