Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Bernie Madoff has died

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 406 posts

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#321

Post by simonh »

jedberg wrote: post #291
xutopia wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is Bitcoin different than gold though? Is gold also a Ponzi scheme?

The value of gold is supported by huge militaries all around the world, including the US military. Just like fiat currency, it derives its value in part from the large group of people with guns willing to commit violence to support its value. Bitcoin doesn't have an army of people willing to commit violence to support its value. At least not yet.

You do realise the gold standard was abandoned a long time ago. What are they going to do, force people to buy it at gunpoint?

Back in the 60s the gold trade was highly regulated. That's why the plot of Goldfinger doesn't really make any sense from a moderns perspective. It seemed quaint even to me as a teenager in the 80s. Nowadays gold is just posh bitcoin.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#322

Post by bboylen »

ericd wrote: post #301
throwawayboise wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With what earnings would they do this?

Their cash balance, debt, or equity raise. Or they go bankrupt. That would be part of the risk of doing something that got your company this punishment. To be clear, I’m not advocating these shutdowns as a good idea, there are a lot of implications that I haven’t thought through.

Who is going to invest cash into a business that has to stop operating for N months, while maintaining everyone on payroll?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#323

Post by dilippkumar »

OscarCunningham wrote: post #241
dilippkumar wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Rate” here meant the first derivative of the number of transactions. Not the “btc usd exchange rate” An equivalent way to say the same thing is: “number of bitcoins being purchased with USD per hour > number of USDs being purchased with bitcoin per hour”.

There's one buyer and one seller in every transaction.

Right. One of them is coinbase.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#324

Post by simplerman »

mminer237 wrote: post #299
simplerman wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would sue guilty employees even if they quit and move to another company. I feel that would be much better for personal responsibility. And the best part about this would be people cannot hide behind "I am just following orders."

Also, it would mean you usually would not recover anything since a corporation usually has deep pockets and your average employee is not even worth suing even if you could win.

True, but that may be a good thing. This may prevent people from suing for small infractions.

On other hand, let's say, if your average software developer knows that they can be sued into bankruptcy, then they will not release unfinished code and voice strong opposition to it. Thus shifting responsibility to middle managers. Now if middle managers know that they can be sued into bankruptcy, they will not override developers concerns and extend deadline and refuse to push unfinished product. Executives may try to override managers decisions but then responsibility shifts to them and they would not want to lose significant portion of their net worth. Board or managing-owners may try to override CEO, but then they will be responsible and they would not want to be personally sued and lose a portion of their personal wealth.

Yes this may not impact billionaire owners but that is a small number. Most companies will be more ethical and people will have a high degree of personal responsibility.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#325

Post by leetcrew »

cogman10 wrote: post #154
minitoar wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually feel like Disney would be willing to pay people to spend 2 days in jail in order to keep their fireworks show. You’ve just moved the cost from a fine to a salary.

You just have to go up the management chain until you find the person that will stop the practice. I doubt if it ended up with the CEO and going to jail that they'd keep it up.

yeah and if that doesn't work, you can always go after their family.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#326

Post by greedo »

bobthechef wrote: post #254
vidarh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway, a "life" sentence used to be 21 years, with parole possible after 14. Now there is a stricter option that in theory can end up being actual life, but it requires extension by 5 years at a time after evaluation to determine if the prisoner is still an active threat to society, and it's rarely used. US sentencing has always seemed absolutely crazy to me, to the point where if I through some magic found mysel…

I see, so Breivik can go kill a bunch of children and hang out in "prison" with his XBox and hope to leave on parole? And that's normal for you? I mean, if you think that isn't an insult to the victims, their families, etc.; if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man. Heck, if killing someone, let alone that many people, isn't so bad, why do we care about any other crime as muc…

It's been a long long time (if it ever existed) where US prisons gave a crap about rehabilitation. It's always been about punishment first, then keeping society "safe" second. And studies have consistently shown that the death penalty acts as no deterrent to murder; I would suspect the same would show that other crimes are not deterred by the threat of prison. Too many crimes are a result of impulse control failures in individuals.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#327

Post by jaredtn »

saalweachter wrote: post #97
tim333 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin isn't really a ponzi scheme though, just an asset that gets bid up. In a ponzi you pay in x and are promised x+50% or some such and the scheme fails when there isn't money to pay out x+50%. With bitcoin you buy for price x and sell for price y which may be higher or lower. Different thing. It can't fail, just go up or down in price.

Eh, I'm comfortable calling Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme because all profits extracted by early investors come from later investors. That's, like, a very specific and applicable definition.

This is how literally every financial asset works.

If you want to make a customer cash-flow argument, Ethereum has $9B of ARR. Same story.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#328

Post by parenthesis »

rainyMammoth wrote: post #119

After watching the movie "The Wizard of Lies", i changed my mind if Madoff. He was a prisoner of his own vice and it consumed him and killed his whole family

He brings to my mind the man who loses his job, but, too ashamed to tell his wife, continues to leave the house in his suit every morning, his wife not discovering the true situation until the house is foreclosed, at which point it is too late.

A tragic figure, who unfortunately brings down others with him.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#329

Post by jedberg »

simonh wrote: post #321
jedberg wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The value of gold is supported by huge militaries all around the world, including the US military. Just like fiat currency, it derives its value in part from the large group of people with guns willing to commit violence to support its value. Bitcoin doesn't have an army of people willing to commit violence to support its value. At least not yet.

You do realise the gold standard was abandoned a long time ago. What are they going to do, force people to buy it at gunpoint? Back in the 60s the gold trade was highly regulated. That's why the plot of Goldfinger doesn't really make any sense from a moderns perspective. It seemed quaint even to me as a teenager in the 80s. Nowadays gold is just posh bitcoin.

I'm aware that we aren't on the gold standard, but the US still has the largest store of gold in the world, and uses its army (and courts) to defend the value of gold. Along with the next top three holders, Germany, France, and Italy.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#330

Post by kiba »

bobthechef wrote: post #254
vidarh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway, a "life" sentence used to be 21 years, with parole possible after 14. Now there is a stricter option that in theory can end up being actual life, but it requires extension by 5 years at a time after evaluation to determine if the prisoner is still an active threat to society, and it's rarely used. US sentencing has always seemed absolutely crazy to me, to the point where if I through some magic found mysel…

I see, so Breivik can go kill a bunch of children and hang out in "prison" with his XBox and hope to leave on parole? And that's normal for you? I mean, if you think that isn't an insult to the victims, their families, etc.; if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man. Heck, if killing someone, let alone that many people, isn't so bad, why do we care about any other crime as muc…

Justice has more than one aim. Deterrence and rehabilitation are two of them, so is the preservation of social order. But justice is also retributive. Retribution isn't about hate, whatever modern confusion tells you. That's why we aim to have qualified impartial third-parties (judges) who are supposed to adjudicate such things instead of leaving things up to a hate-filled lynch mob, one that often confuses envy with anger at injustice.

And Norwegian society operate just fine with Breivik playing xbox in prison.

In the end, retribution still doesn't fix anything. We're machines. We should act like this is true, not surrender to our monkey brain.

Post reply on HN