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Bernie Madoff has died

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Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#291

Post by jedberg »

xutopia wrote: post #35
soneca wrote: post #33

Madoff made his ponzi scheme last 17 years with a limited network. Imagine how long a ponzi scheme accessible by the whole world could last. Possibly forever (or at least longer than my lifetime). I am thinking about Bitcoin here.

Why is Bitcoin different than gold though? Is gold also a Ponzi scheme?

The value of gold is supported by huge militaries all around the world, including the US military. Just like fiat currency, it derives its value in part from the large group of people with guns willing to commit violence to support its value.

Bitcoin doesn't have an army of people willing to commit violence to support its value. At least not yet.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#292

Post by ericd »

i_haz_rabies wrote: post #177
hobs wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So fix the social safety net, too big to fail is not something we want to have, especially when it comes to actively harmful companies...

Jailing the people responsible seems like a way better option than putting potentially tens of thousands of people on welfare.

Part of the punishment could be that the company still has to pay all salaries and hourly wages while it’s shut down.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#293

Post by AshamedCaptain »

bobthechef wrote: post #254
vidarh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Norway, a "life" sentence used to be 21 years, with parole possible after 14. Now there is a stricter option that in theory can end up being actual life, but it requires extension by 5 years at a time after evaluation to determine if the prisoner is still an active threat to society, and it's rarely used. US sentencing has always seemed absolutely crazy to me, to the point where if I through some magic found mysel…

I see, so Breivik can go kill a bunch of children and hang out in "prison" with his XBox and hope to leave on parole? And that's normal for you? I mean, if you think that isn't an insult to the victims, their families, etc.; if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man. Heck, if killing someone, let alone that many people, isn't so bad, why do we care about any other crime as muc…

> if you don't think that's absolutely crazy, and I don't know what to tell you, man

> to adjudicate such things instead of leaving things up to a hate-filled lynch mob

See the duality of your own post.

If I try to be impartial, I can hardly see the point to any sentence larger than a couple decades. When you get to those levels of sentencing where you basically decimate the total useful lifetime of someone, you might as well kill the person.

... and I guess I understand something now.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#294

Post by iudqnolq »

monocasa wrote: post #289
iudqnolq wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right. I just pointed out the one of the pieces of evidence you used is slightly wrong. Suing the government is a very special case.

See the "Exceptions and abrogation" section of your own citation. It is indeed a (albeit large) subset of actions to which they can apply sovereign immunity.

Yes. All I'm trying to say is it's opt-in, not opt out. I don't find this particularly interesting or important so this is the last comment I'll make here.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#295

Post by Wowfunhappy »

cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

> Fines are just the cost of doing business.

Isn’t that just because the fines aren’t high enough?

I think we should make more fines based on an individual’s (or company’s) net worth.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#297

Post by throwawayboise »

ericd wrote: post #292
i_haz_rabies wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jailing the people responsible seems like a way better option than putting potentially tens of thousands of people on welfare.

Part of the punishment could be that the company still has to pay all salaries and hourly wages while it’s shut down.

With what earnings would they do this?

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#298

Post by throwawayboise »

ryandrake wrote: post #141
cletus wrote: post #30

Here's the one lesson I really want us to all learn from this: the only thing the rich fear is prison because prison robs them of time. Fines are just the cost of doing business. There are many other scandals: the whole subprime disaster, pollution from plants and the like where no one went to prison and people really should've.

Corporations (which are usually the payer of fines for bad behavior) don't fear prison because they can't be physically imprisoned. You can't put Exxon in jail. And, lawmakers deliberately make it so damn hard to pierce the corporate liability veil and hold shareholders or directors personally liable for the corporation's actions. So, we need to both move more towards prison and start digging in to which actual peopl…

There's no need to put Exxon in jail. Exxon is what the C-level executives make it. If they decide that Exxon is going to break the law (or permit it to happen), and are held personally responsible, that is all you would need to do to see a large change in behavior.

Shareholders are too far removed from personal responsibility, and holding them responsible beyond the financial risk they already carry would basically destroy the rationale for the existence of limited liability corporations.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#299

Post by mminer237 »

simplerman wrote: post #234
seneca wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a corporation is a legal person with inalienable rights (as the SCOTUS seems to have decided on) Please stop repeating this nonsense. Corporate Personhood is a legal idea, and does not mean a "corporation is a legal person". Without corporate personhood, you wouldn't be able to sue a company for wrongdoing if the guilty employee quit, or even enforce basic contracts. There are serious problems with corporations…

You would sue guilty employees even if they quit and move to another company. I feel that would be much better for personal responsibility. And the best part about this would be people cannot hide behind "I am just following orders."

Also, it would mean you usually would not recover anything since a corporation usually has deep pockets and your average employee is not even worth suing even if you could win.

Re: Bernie Madoff has died

#300

Post by mhh__ »

_wqdq wrote: post #188
data_acquired wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To quote another Bernie, there's a fair bit of socialism for the rich in the US through bailouts when big corporations lose too much money/are too big to fail.

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, as that's as true of a statement as almost anything. This weird, hypermasculine obsession with capitalism amongst this forum (and tech community at large) just perpetuates injustices.

Well I don't know about you, but I am merely a temporarily embarrassed founder
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