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YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

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Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#141

I think the "oh no human moderation would cost us too much" defense is a distraction. It's a good one, because it is working, but it is still a distraction. Let us suppose we have a program which checks for orthodoxy according to the YouTube Terms of Service against each video submitted. Nothing but a lack of having done the work prevents YouTube from adding to its "rejected" flag the following: 1) A list of timestar…

this will make it very easy to develop adversarial algorithm and avoid detection by youtube's system

That would literally beat the current situation by a country mile. The goal isn't to perfect the YouTube flagging algo, after all ... an adversarial algo is a small price to pay.

Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#143
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This ignores human bad actors. There is no "rollback" for the existence of algorithms. Instead of whining (problems without solutions) spend some time contemplating what a sufficient algorithmic solution looks like. To be clear, that would be an algorithmic solution that "fights back" against issues like these (and not simply improving a failing solution). That may not be a competing product. Maybe it's an algorithmi…

The algorithm can exist, but to run it at scale requires buildings and large teams and bank accounts and therefore the companies that use these algorithms are susceptible to regulation. Otherwise it seems like an enormous waste of talent and resources playing cat and mouse, when we can just give them guidelines and fairly often they'll be followed. Of course bad actors can exist, but that's not a reason to give up on…

> give up on social solution to problems

Everything is a trade-off.

Sure humans can be used for moderating spam.

I'd prefer if they performed real social work, instead.

Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#144
post #73
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually frame it this way - Mazda Motor Corporation, an order of magnitude smaller company can provide me with a several salons in my And Google, the mighty megacorporation, can't even clear a basic phone support bar, much less a local user support office in each region? Something normal for other corporations?

Mazda earns several hundred to several thousand dollars of profit from the sale of a car to you. Google earns an order of magnitude or two less per user.

Thousands of dollars are only possible with luxury cars.

VW, one of the two largest auto makers, makes around 300€ profit per vehicle sale (excluding luxury brands). For some models it's even less than 100€. You can calculate around 1% profit for a car sale, often less.

The actual money is in leasing and financing, which is why almost all automakers own a bank.

Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#145

YouTube, like most of the "Internet" these days it's just a shopping center. It appears to be the Universe because these sites/companies are so massive but at the end of the day it's their turf and they do what they want. Now, once they reach a certain scale, why are they allowed to operate like a "normal small company"?

If I can uninstall YouTube from my Android I think that would be a good start towards a journey to a normal, if not small company..

Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that machines aren't making some grand objective pronouncement, sent from on high and untainted by base human nature. Machines are programmed to carry out some particular human desire. They follow that single human desire, without any of the restraint or competition of other desires, no matter how deep that path may lead. Machines are assholes with nefarious agendas given to them either intentionally or uninte…

We have a brief window to get this right before the machines take over. Let's not waste it.

Though I agree, I would phrase it as "before people with machines take over". The machines themselves are tools enacting the will of whoever controls them.

Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#147

I think the "oh no human moderation would cost us too much" defense is a distraction. It's a good one, because it is working, but it is still a distraction. Let us suppose we have a program which checks for orthodoxy according to the YouTube Terms of Service against each video submitted. Nothing but a lack of having done the work prevents YouTube from adding to its "rejected" flag the following: 1) A list of timestar…

That will never work. If you tell the user exactly what they did wrong, they will keep trying by changing very little in the original video until it gets past bots, but still keeps the illegal or "forbidden" message. I think youtube should not be allowed to remove videos for their content unless for legal reasons. Meaning it's a violation of the law, in which case they have to send the information to the police as we…

> If you tell the user exactly what they did wrong, they will keep trying by changing very little in the original video until it gets past bots, but still keeps the illegal or "forbidden" message.

I think there's a possibility to implement that handles the issue you describe.

It's trivial to detect an user trying to circumvent content controls if he's trying that from the same account. When that is detected the user account can be put into manual mode review or automatically block new uploads for a while.

If circumvent is tried with different accounts the current system already doesn't prevent that so nothing is lost.

Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#148
post #16
post #4

>Anyhow, I truly believe humanity has to rollback to operating at a human scale. >Using algorithms to flag content is totally fine… problem is when humans cannot interact with humans anymore and AI gets to chose what is right and wrong. Can't agree more.

The thing is, we have to make sure we're OK with the consequences of going this way. Would people be happy to wait for days, maybe weeks, for their video to be approved for upload to YouTube? Would that work with the current society's attention span? Is YouTube as we know it actually feasible without AI-based moderation? Can it be a sustainable business with an army of human moderators and/or a drastically reduced sc…

Anyone can upload a video to their website and make it viewable to all. The hosting is not the issue. You could use dropbox, box, etc for easy video hosting and sharing.

It's the discovery piece that cannot be replicated. If hosting happened outside moderation can move to automatic with a user/ml flag with manual approve process that follows.

Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#149
It's disheartening that in the 2000s, people used to regularly talk about creating decentralized systems to prevent megacorporations and governments from being able to censor the internet, now the tech community that used to deplore such tactics actively supports mass AI censorship on entire host of topics where the only version of the truth that is allowed to stand is #thenarrative.

Re: YouTube suspends account for linking to a PhD research on WPA2 vulnerability

#150
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, we have to make sure we're OK with the consequences of going this way. Would people be happy to wait for days, maybe weeks, for their video to be approved for upload to YouTube? Would that work with the current society's attention span? Is YouTube as we know it actually feasible without AI-based moderation? Can it be a sustainable business with an army of human moderators and/or a drastically reduced sc…

Maybe we could have that if the uploader is responsible, not the platform. Want to upload fast and not having your content taken down - deal with the legal issues yourself. Want anonymous uploading and/or some protection - deal with automatic systems as employing enough people is just too expensive.

Maybe we could have that if the uploader is responsible, not the platform.

Maybe we could have the uploader host their own content, and do away with hosting platforms and their gatekeeping altogether?

I can see little reason today that well-established technologies and individual hosting arrangements couldn't offer similar value to whatever YouTube or some other centralised hosting service offers.

We are talking about the World Wide Web. Linking to other people's content is literally the central feature of the real platform here. For a long time, we did just fine with community-operated facilities and everyone linking to other sources of interesting content to help discoverability. We still do, really, but now the links and other community engagement tend to be locked up in places like different YouTube tabs for each channel, not the sidebar of someone's personal website. Of course, these days we also have entire sites (HN among them) built around sharing links to content that might be interesting to like-minded people. So I don't buy the usual arguments about centralised content hosting being the only way interesting content can gain exposure.

Numerous individual content creators make demos or livestream games or present tutorials with decent-to-excellent presentation values. They often use specialist software to do it. I therefore don't buy arguments about the technical difficulty of self-hosting either. There could be hosting packages offered by ISPs or other hosting services on a common carrier basis if individuals didn't want to set up all the infrastructure themselves, and those who were good/popular enough to make it more of a regular income would still have the ability to do so but now on their own terms.

Even at today's prices, you could serve tens of thousands of videos directly for less than a lot of people are paying for their ISP or mobile/cell phone plan each month. And of course, we know lots about how to efficiently serve interesting content via P2P networks that could be a big amplifier for popular content producers who were happy to share without wanting to monetise or otherwise collect large numbers of viewers on their own site for some reason. The available capacity and prices are surely only going to improve as the technology improves. So that's cost taken care of in most or all cases too.

So, if individuals hosting their own content is technically and economically feasible, and if individual creators and community groups facilitating content discovery is a viable culture along with all the other interactions they tend to have anyway, I struggle to see why the likes of YouTube are so valuable or irreplaceable in our society today. Obviously if YT disappeared overnight there would be a gap tomorrow, but we've been adapting and filling gaps and finding better ways to do things on the Internet since some time in the last millennium, and I see no reason to think we wouldn't do so again.

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