US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine • Hacker News Board

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#791

Post by autokad » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

nawitus wrote: post #771

wincy wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went to the emergency room for earth shattering headaches (no history of headaches like this) after getting the J&J vaccine last week. I mentioned I’d got the vaccine and asked if it was possible the two were linked. The doctor did everything but actually roll his eyes and thought that the headache being caused by the vaccine was ridiculous. I bet if I went today he wouldn’t be so dismissive.

That's odd, as headache is a common symptom for many vaccines (or pretty much any medicine).

a thunder clap headache is also a symptom of a stroke.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#792

Post by happycube » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 8:57 PM UTC

morpheuskafka wrote: post #762

dheera wrote: post #736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is everyone worried about blood clots, and not that the J&J vaccine has a crap-tastic efficiency of 66.3%? Would you want the chef at your local takeout to be vaccinated to 66.3% efficiency? or 94%? Why was this vaccine even approved, instead of just having J&J produce the same vaccine Pfizer and Moderna are making, which would be in the best interest of the world? Is this some utterly idiotic capitalism bullshit…

> And then hand that formula to the rest of the world including Brazil, India, China, and other recent new COVID hotspots so that the virus doesn't boomerang back to the US in an evolved form? Such a vaccine would also have two doses and require intense refrigeration which are the primary issues blocking it... additionally many of those jurisdictions might not accept a US vaccine. China, maybe, since they admitted th…

It's kinda funny how Sputnik-V felt like a rushed publicity stunt... and later on it turned out it might actually work.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#793

Post by cactus2093 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 8:58 PM UTC

savanu wrote: post #755

dheera wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but 65% efficacy still means that 1/3 of the vaccinated people will continue to be spreaders, which doesn't sound great, especially if that allows the virus to spread and evolve into a harsher variety.

The different efficacy rates of the vaccines do not directly imply anything about spreading covid. A vaccinated person can have no symptoms of covid and still be spreading (This may or may not be true). Folks are still studying how effective the vaccines are at preventing spread.

> A vaccinated person can have no symptoms of covid and still be spreading

Aren't the efficacy numbers from the phase 3 trials based on giving periodic PCR tests to everyone that was participating in the trials? And not just based on people self-reporting symptoms?

It would be very surprising if there were a new kind of asymptomatic carrier that emerged only for people having taken certain vaccines in which they would never test positive on a PCR test but could still spread covid. The odds that this is how the vaccines work seems very small, relative to the number of times this argument that "we don't know yet" is getting repeated.

It just seems strange to me that so many people are hung up on pointing out that this small possibility is still a possibility. It seems more likely that this will drive more people to skip the vaccine, since they're being told they can't even go back to normal once vaccinated, than anything else.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#794

Post by whatshisface » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 8:59 PM UTC

joshgel wrote: post #436

miketery wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point, I hadn’t considered this. Also there was the factory QA issue. Possibly much like in aviation , multiple small factors here that need to be addressed and they’re using this as easy excuse to put pause.

This is possible, but I work in medical research, and this pause is pretty standard practice. When there is a potential problem, you pause, gather more data, come up with a mitigation plan (if needed) and submit all this to the ethics authority (usually IRB). Its rote standard practice. And i think much more likely that they are following standard practice than there are hidden issues that haven't otherwise been reve…

We can only guess, but I would imagine that pausing would show that issues were being taken seriously and reduce hesitancy. Compare:

- Government breaks standard practice in favor of J&J corporation, allowing sales to continue After These People Died!!1!

- Government pauses J&J vaccine, experts condemn them for extreme caution.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#795

Post by cbm-vic-20 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:00 PM UTC

yboris wrote: post #312

Relevant tweet: https://twitter.com/robertwiblin/status/1381967753234411530 J&J doses delivered: 7 million. Reported blood clotting events: 6. Daily risk of dying of COVID19 in the US: 1 in 330,000. CDC and FDA: Pause the J&J vaccine. Draw your own conclusion on how aligned these folks are with your interests.

> Draw your own conclusion on how aligned these folks are with your interests.

What's this supposed to mean? Is the implication here that the CDC and FDA want to keep people from being vaccinated? WHy?

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#796

Post by cma » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #523

cma wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people who died from blood clots probably would still be alive had they not taken the vaccine. Isn't it just person (1 person), not people, at this point?

No, there are many.

Only one blood clot death suspected to be from the J&J vaccine, and another in critical condition.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#797

Post by 5cents » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

phnofive wrote: post #399

textman wrote: post #322

"The incidence of cerebral venous thrombosis (CVT) varies between studies, but it is estimated to be between 2 and 5 per million per year. A recent study in the Netherlands with comprehensive ascertainment suggested a much higher incidence." https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/STROKEAHA.116.0... So the six reported cases in 6.8 million vaccinations seems low. Glad I read about all this because I got the J&J…

Similar to AZ, all six were women between the ages of 18 and 48.

20% male (1 patient) in this report https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2104882

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#798

Post by newaccount7 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:03 PM UTC

tacitusarc wrote: post #734

js2 wrote: post #702

The risk of dying from a blood clot after receiving the J&J vaccine is six in 6,800,000 (6.8M). The world population is 7,900,000,000 (7.9B). If everyone on the planet got the J&J vaccine tomorrow, and if it is the cause of the clots, then 6,971 people would die from the vaccine. Yesterday, Covid19 killed 8,803 people (according to worldometers). We don't want anyone to die from vaccination, and we don't fully unders…

6 obvious deaths that we're aware of. The risk of the vaccines is in their novelty and morbidity. An abundance of caution is required in this instance. It would be very bad to discover that there's a vanishingly small chance of blood clots within the first 3 months but a significant chance when paired with other events over the following decade.

So I created a new account for this to avoid linking personal information...

I had blood clots in my lungs last week a few days after getting the J&J vaccine. I'm an otherwise totally healthy man in my 30s, no preconditions. The hospital reported it to the vaccine reporting agency, which I assume is reviewing all this information.

I'm not sure if they considered my case when making this decision. My clots were different type than what these women experienced (pulmonary, not cerebral).

Of course vaccinating the public is extremely important right now. If the risks of clotting really are 1 in a million, it makes sense to re-instate it. I also think that's an obvious conclusion and the people working on this are well aware of the public health trade-off.

I suspect they are working with more information than what's in the press release, and its prudent to give them some time to work through it.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#799

Post by narrator » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

klebe wrote: post #679

I must say, the general state of discourse on HN has severely deteriorated over the past year (mostly in line with other online platforms, I suppose) COVID is the single worst thing to happen to civil discussion in my lifetime. The virus is obviously a risk. So are the vaccines. Acting any other way is just downright disingenuous. At the end of the day, any person with a working brain is free to calculate those risks…

I don't think most people are looking for the truth anymore. They are more interested in finding out what team you're on and who else says what you believe and what team they're on. A logical argument with references means absolutely nothing to most people these days. Questioning certain "truths" will quickly get you banned on many social media platforms and the list of "truths" gets longer every day.

I was in a zoom call with a large number of people I consider educated. They were talking about the California propositions and they didn't want to talk about what they said or to argue for or against, they just wanted to know who supports and opposes which one and if they were on the right team.

Re: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine

#800

Post by autokad » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

js2 wrote: post #702

The risk of dying from a blood clot after receiving the J&J vaccine is six in 6,800,000 (6.8M). The world population is 7,900,000,000 (7.9B). If everyone on the planet got the J&J vaccine tomorrow, and if it is the cause of the clots, then 6,971 people would die from the vaccine. Yesterday, Covid19 killed 8,803 people (according to worldometers). We don't want anyone to die from vaccination, and we don't fully unders…

0.00009% over a 30 year period means you have about a 1% chance of being blown up by starting your car. that's about the odds of catching HIV while having unprotected sex with someone who is HIV positive (depends on a lot of factors though).