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Just Be Rich

keenen.xyz

451–460 of 1001 posts

Re: Just Be Rich

#451
post #7

A lot of people who are just as smart and motived as Elon Musk or Steve Jobs will never be able to start their own companies and get rich. Because they have family obligations that take priority. Because they live outside high-income countries. Because they have no access to support network, so when they fail, they fall all the way to bottom. Because they may have made a crippling mistake in their pasts that now prev…

Why people are doing this?

How can you compare Elon or Steve Jobs wealth level to well anyone?

There are CEO's of successful companies that worked their whole lives and never got to that level. Aiming for that is well crippling. People should aim to have a good life...

Re: Just Be Rich

#452

Income inequality is growing, yes. But are the wealthy somehow responsible for it? Is their "getting richer" directly responsible for it? There seems to be a growing consensus on the left that they are. I have yet to see a convincing argument to show this though. Someone who builds a company worth 100m didn't have to steal money from me (or anyone else) to do it. If they did steal, then that's what needs fixed. Preve…

I (leftie) don't see growing wealth inequality necessarily as a problem; however, it does factor into which solutions are available for the problems I do care about. One of the problems I care about are the living conditions of those who are worst off. Despite economic growth, the conditions for these people have, depending on the area, barely improved, stagnated, or even deteriorated over the last decades in many we…

I agree with you--peoples living conditions should be improving and at a good rate. One thing to consider though, is when people talk about the affordability of anything from X years ago to now, oftentimes those "things" have changed significantly. For example, house sizes have gone up drastically over time, and at the same time house fewer people. In 1950's houses average 292 sq ft / person, where in 2010 it's up to 924 sq ft [1]. Healthcare "cost" have changed as a result of advancements in treatments but also due to a population living longer and longer. We need to take these things into account because it's going to be more difficult to buy a home that's 3x the size, and likely has a lot more expensive electronics and other appliances in it. You can't just wave the hand over what a home is today vs what it was 70 years ago.

I don't believe everyone needs a new iPhone every 12/24 months (or even one at all), or a 2000 sq ft house to themselves, but everyone does need food, shelter, affordable healthcare, and again I'm open to the argument for education.

I bring these points up primarily because there are ample examples of people from the FIRE community (financial independence retire early) who live on a minimal income but save and are able to retire early. In my opinion, they're able to save more simply because they focus on only buying what they really, truly need. And they're able to resist advertisements that attempt to convince them a want is a need. Many of the crazy successful examples from the community are dual income 6 figure earners, but there are examples of teachers retiring early by living frugally. One of the interesting things of capitalism is it's convinced society that many wants are needs. If you can outsmart society, you can profit/benefit.

I agree redistribution is what's needed, but where I disagree is on the how. I'd rather see more opportunity given instead of reward taken. I don't think a lack of government funds is the issue.

> As an aside, I'm quite curious what you mean by "underlying issues".

At a high level the problem that I think we'd agree on is more people need to be able to cover basic needs. Housing, food, healthcare, and arguably education. I'm not an expert in any one of these, but I have worked with hospitals before. There's a massive amount of resistance to change within hospitals. They move and innovate (and as a result improve) extremely slowly. They're very inefficient (25% of hospital costs amount to waste [2]). I'd argue this is one underlying issue under the umbrella of the "healthcare" issues. I don't wish to propose a solution--because I honestly don't claim to have one. There are some arguable reasons for why healthcare moves slowly--extreme risk aversion. But I think that's why we employ politicians with our tax dollars--to propose and implement solutions. A failure to fix these issues is a failure of our politicians, and since we vote them into office, a failure on our part.

Just as another example, I've been told that permits alone to build a home in my area cost ~35k. I've also been told that about 50% of construction costs (or perhaps it was only construction labor costs?) end up going to taxes. I don't have any sources to back this up--just heard from various sources I deemed semi reliable.

[1] https://compasscaliforniablog.com/have-american-homes-change....

[2] https://www.newsweek.com/us-wastes-25-healthcares-spending-1...

Re: Just Be Rich

#453
post #372
post #7

A lot of people who are just as smart and motived as Elon Musk or Steve Jobs will never be able to start their own companies and get rich. Because they have family obligations that take priority. Because they live outside high-income countries. Because they have no access to support network, so when they fail, they fall all the way to bottom. Because they may have made a crippling mistake in their pasts that now prev…

Not that I disagree with anything you said necessarily, but it's so much more complicated than this. Sometimes being less fortunate is what motivates people to become rich. The truth is I had a huge amount of stuff holding me back as a child, and still do, but imo that is why I managed to succeed (relatively at least) where others I knew who had similar intelligence and better backgrounds did not. Even in my own fami…

This. I come from a coal mining village in the eastern Ukraine, where people didn't get salaries for 4-5 months and would live off the food that they grew in the back yard. My home village is controlled by the DPR separatists, my parents became refugees in their 50s. I made it to the top ~5% in Germany. Of course there are many factors to it: my parents saved up to buy me a computer, I was fond of western culture to an extent of self-learning English and of course I was just very lucky. Now, here in Germany, all of a sudden I get treated as if I had a head start over the other 95%, especially given my skin color and gender. I'm definitely not a fan of Ayn Rand, but some tirades about people who are not poor get more and more resemblance with the monologues of her grotesque looter characters.

Re: Just Be Rich

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes isn't the reason why more people aren't richer. In fact, taxes is the reason why more people aren't poorer, because they pay for essential social services. At least in most countries, when receiving hospital bills you're not afraid to end up with crippling debt. The reason more people aren't richer is because of private property and the capitalist system. As a whole, humanity is pretty rich and is severely dest…

Give a viable alternative that doesn't descend into fascism. Capitalism is called the 'least worst' system for a reason, and some countries have an excellent QoL under it.

> Capitalism is called the 'least worst' system

Capitalism is only called "least worst" by capitalists themselves. Much of humanity considers capitalism "the worst".

> Give a viable alternative that doesn't descend into fascism

So, to give some historic perspective, capitalism is precisely the root cause of fascism. All totalitarian systems are capitalist by essence, and historic fascism in France, Germany, Italy, Greece (etc) was pushed not by popular support but by industry leaders. Mussolini himself even argued fascism should be called "corporatism" because such was its true nature. If you'd like to learn more about this, i strongly recommend a documentary called "Fascism Inc".

Now, i'm guessing you believe the USSR was a fascist alternative to capitalism. As an anarchist, i understand the USSR to be a form of State capitalism, not communism. Communism is when power and resources are shared, which is what the Soviet (workers councils) revolution was about before the Bolsheviks (Lenin's sect) seized power and murdered the revolutionaries to establish their dictatorship ("of the proletariat", or so they say).

To people in the USSR, the police was the same. The prison was the same. The factory was the same. The same cult of control and productivity plagued their lives under Lenin as it did under the tsar. And the same political persecution hit them with Trotsky's Red Army as with the Tsar's Okrana. If it looks like capitalism, that's because it is capitalism.

So, now that "dictatorship of the proletariat", "fascism" and "capitalism" have been ruled out as potential candidates for making society better, what about an actual democracy (anarchy)? What about a society in which nobody has to worry for a place to sleep and food to feed their children? In which nobody has to work side gigs to pay for education or health bills? In which regulations are decided not by a national parliament full of the worst psychopaths this planet holds, but by a local assembly of peers where people can decide for themselves?

Our current political systems in the west claim to be democracies but those claims fail any form of scrutiny. The designers of our political systems (in France and USA at least) were either slave owners or colonization advocates, and were in any case strongly opposed to women having political rights. For example Jules Ferry, who is revered in France as the founder of public schools, is less famous for his take on how "superior races" had a duty to civilize "inferior races"... which explains how and why the french public school system was used as a tool of colonization to destroy local cultures.

If you really think you live in a democracy, think about it. Were you given any occasion to vote on actual topics? If your neighborhood opposes a national law, are you free to have your own local regulation supersede the national law? Are you free to study how power applies in your country, and to report on it for your peers? At work, are you free to decide with your peers how to manage the company, or is a boss deciding for you? Are you reaping the benefits of your work, or is a boss and some shareholders reaping them for you?

This system is hated by most because it's ruining lives and killing millions of people. Capitalism is just as rude as Mao's rule, you just can't see it if you're part of the tiny privileged elite (as most of us on HN are). If you're looking for alternatives, please read some anarchist/liberation literature. There's centuries of social criticism and ideas on how to improve things... it just so happens the people formulating these are hunted/jailed/assassinated by those in power. A few names to get started: emma goldman, kropotkin, bell hooks, noam chomsky, david graeber, angela davis...

Re: Just Be Rich

#455

Inequality by itself is not a bad thing. Let's start from there. If 90% of the population had a (sustainable) lifestyle of current dollar millionaires, and the remaining 10% had a (sustainable) lifestyle of dollar billionaires, there would be lots of inequality, but it wouldn't be problematic. Inequality is only bad if you're in a zero-sum game. The rich do have the power to extract rents and "rig the system" to ceme…

I agree, and would go further and argue that the lives of most middle class is perfectly fine right now. I think the lives of the bottom 20% could be improved, and I think that we should ask those at the top 10% to help them out. I think there are other more specific things we could worry about, like house prices out of control, nobody is paying to clean up the waste they produce, governments baling out rich people e…

>> governments baling out rich people

>> the lives of the bottom 20% could be improved, and I think that we should ask those at the top 10% to help them out

Governments are taking money out of people's pockets by running a printing press / increasing taxes and using them for personal gains. Solution? Ask the government to take even more money. They will be ashamed and start working in the interests of every citizen.

Re: Just Be Rich

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There isn't a finite amount of "wealth" in the world. You can go out and make wealth every single day. The rich obtaining more of it doesn't mean there's less left over for you and I. There is an essence of truth to that, but it certainly does not tell the whole story. Consider what happens with Amazon. When they put a family-owned store out of business, those people need to work somewhere. They then turn to the on…

> Amazon [...] simply taking all of the customers and wealth away from all of the smaller businesses Amazon doesn't "simply" take others wealth. It wins by providing a better service

Sure, Amazon wins by providing lower prices through economies of scale. The details of how they acquire customers of small businesses are not relevant because it does not influence the end result. Wealth is moved from one party (a small business) to another (a large multinational). There is a clear loser.

Re: Just Be Rich

#457
post #208
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That new technology benefited someone besides the entrepreneur. All the consumers of that technology benefited from it. Some of that technology was directed to providing services for the wealthy but a lot benefited people widely. That is blindingly obvious: smart phones, covid vaccines, cheap screens, etc... A wealth tax of 100% has been tried before. That definitely disincentivized wealth creation. We have run that…

Examples: increasing capital gains taxes, AMT for corporations above a certain revenue, increasing minimum wage, free college, free healthcare, increasing inheritance taxes, breaking oligopolies by creating competitive markets, universal basic income.

Nice! And we can even pay for it by using universal income, we just need to do an initial round of UBI and then it will bootstrap itself! Why nobody thought of that before?

Re: Just Be Rich

#458
post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you, it's been a while now since I started improving things so it's easier to look at this more objectively. I was harsh on my parents in that post, they were dysfunctional but my mother loved all of us in her own way and spent her whole life arround us, and I can't say a lot of good things about my father - dealing with my mother in those days would break anyone. I'm on good terms with them now and they are in…

I wonder if things would have turned out the same if your mother hadn't cared about you. My theory is that love from parents and family growing up is hugely important for a happy life. Hard to optimise through political solutions, unfortunately. Just handing out money probably won't help so much, like you observed. Generous parental leave rules might be useful.

And a well functioning social safety net (which also requires money from the state) to catch the youth who suffer from parental neglect and/or lack or resources. You can have role models aside from your parents.

Re: Just Be Rich

#459
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And a lot of people who are as smart and motivated will start their own company but will not get rich because they are not as lucky. Luck play a big part in success

In startups you have to be right only once.

...and be in the right country. And have money or a support network that helps you while chasing the unicorn. Or if you get sick.

Re: Just Be Rich

#460
post #7

A lot of people who are just as smart and motived as Elon Musk or Steve Jobs will never be able to start their own companies and get rich. Because they have family obligations that take priority. Because they live outside high-income countries. Because they have no access to support network, so when they fail, they fall all the way to bottom. Because they may have made a crippling mistake in their pasts that now prev…

I agree, but I’d add that hard working talented people can still do great things without money and despite difficulties. It’s just that the reach or scale is amplified by the money. Money and opportunity are amplifiers. You can be the “Elon musk” of your world, that is you can hit the ceiling of what you were offered. Don’t compare yourself to Elon musk, compare yourself to what was possible for you. Maybe that’s dep…

It might be more liberating if the success narrative in the US focused on relative success instead of “absolute” success. But afaik and have seen in my life thus far, the people everyone knows, worships, or revered for their are 95% of the time the absolute best (sports star, movie star, fortune 50 CEO, bigwig politician, superstar dev, most well known doctor, most fancy medical practice in the US/world, etc)
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