Just Be Rich • Hacker News Board

Re: Just Be Rich

#381

Post by conjectures » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

stdbrouw wrote: post #202

saddlerustle wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every mainstream economist put the blame for this squarely on the massively increased regulation of the housing market since the 70s causing a massive decrease in the amount of new construction, not wealth itself.

That's simply not true. Economists who try to explain the housing crisis have pointed to increased regulation, cheap credit leading to an asset bubble, speculation, ill-advised tax cuts for homeowners, NIMBYism (not by government but by current residents), irrational buy vs. rent decisions, changing preferences for city vs. suburb, relaxed downpayment requirements, changing lifestyles and demographics with bachelors…

It's very simple. If you have N house-seekers and M house-sellers then when N >> M: houses get expensive. Given it's hard to change N, raising M implies building more houses.

In the UK the equivalent of 'zoning' regulations keeps M low. Government 'help to buy' here exacerbates the problem as it directly increases N without directly increasing M.

The fundamental model here is musical chairs.

Re: Just Be Rich

#382

Post by namdnay » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #352

d_silin wrote: post #7

A lot of people who are just as smart and motived as Elon Musk or Steve Jobs will never be able to start their own companies and get rich. Because they have family obligations that take priority. Because they live outside high-income countries. Because they have no access to support network, so when they fail, they fall all the way to bottom. Because they may have made a crippling mistake in their pasts that now prev…

If you are born poor it is extremely difficult to escape poverty, especially because of high taxes that you are going to experience as soon as your education and determination lands you a good job. This severely inhibits your means to save or to invest. The progressive taxation is like a back-stop to keep everyone in check and prevent people from going up the class ladder. Meanwhile the rich, that are supposed to be…

> If you are born poor it is extremely difficult to escape poverty, especially because of high taxes that you are going to experience as soon as your education and determination lands you a good job

That's very easy to test, by comparing social mobility in countries with more or less progressive tax rates. I think the results say the opposite: progressive tax rates encourage greater mobility (because those taxes go to pay for free higher education, better public transport, mobility initiatives etc)

Re: Just Be Rich

#383

Post by beefield » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

ramblerman wrote: post #221

reader_mode wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a family of 7 (4 younger siblings), during civil war, father was into gamling and drinking, mother was unemployed and constantly on the verge of a mental breakdown (understandable given the conditions she was living in). To paint the picture, I have vivid memories of vomiting a boiled onion I ate after not eating for days (I think I was arround 5 years old). And we were poor well into my early 20s untill…

Unfortunately the dysfunction and poverty may go hand in hand a lot of the time. There is strong indication that scarcity affects cognitive function. "Scarcity: Why having too little means so much" is a great book on this. In essence it is not that people in poverty have less innate executive control / cognitive capacity, but that the situation of poverty causes anyone to lose some significant points of executive con…

Sorry, this may be too inflammable, but there is also evidence that cognitive ability is negatively correlated with conservativity. [1]

So, what to do if you are conservative politician and want more voters? Do you try to make poor people better or worse off given these two data points (whose scientific validity I am not able to judge, but I have to admit, they do seem to make sense)?

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01602...

Re: Just Be Rich

#384

Post by distances » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

varispeed wrote: post #352

d_silin wrote: post #7

A lot of people who are just as smart and motived as Elon Musk or Steve Jobs will never be able to start their own companies and get rich. Because they have family obligations that take priority. Because they live outside high-income countries. Because they have no access to support network, so when they fail, they fall all the way to bottom. Because they may have made a crippling mistake in their pasts that now prev…

If you are born poor it is extremely difficult to escape poverty, especially because of high taxes that you are going to experience as soon as your education and determination lands you a good job. This severely inhibits your means to save or to invest. The progressive taxation is like a back-stop to keep everyone in check and prevent people from going up the class ladder. Meanwhile the rich, that are supposed to be…

Do you have any examples of countries where progressive taxation would be a hindrance for escaping poverty? This frankly sounds like a made-up argument against taxation.

Re: Just Be Rich

#385

Post by raspasov » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

raspasov wrote: post #351

irq wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what you wrote, I agree with RHSeeger that you did indeed make that assumption. That you can’t see it speaks volumes about your analysis not matching the facts.

Still no answer to my question about definition of "access to wealth". It's like "access to God", for what I know.

The unanswered question is half of the statement.

One part: "wealth", another part: "access to wealth".

Re: Just Be Rich

#386

Post by WalterBright » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #374

zimpenfish wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All you need is a computer. Plus free time. Plus motivation and energy which is probably in short supply when you've already done 8 hours in a supermarket / your second job / a full day of childcare / etc. > a few hundred bucks. It's a pretty low bar. For a lot of people in the US, a few hundred bucks is the difference between eating that month and going without. Or being able to pay the rent and not be evicted. Or…

Of course they’re not talking about “those people”, aka the 63% of Americans who live paycheck to paycheck. When the ultra rich speak they’re only speaking to the upper middle 40%. We love a good rags to riches story but economic class changes less in the US than many other countries, despite this “ease”. Show me any group of founders and you can point to a few outliers but people who have had jobs like grocery store…

> 63% of Americans who live paycheck to paycheck

That doesn't mean they're poor. I've known many, many people with zero savings living paycheck to paycheck. They had new cars, nice houses, good furniture, expensive clothes, took vacations, and ate regularly at restaurants.

They simply spent it all.

Re: Just Be Rich

#387

Post by camhart » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 9:59 AM UTC

yiyus wrote: post #331

camhart wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't a finite amount of "wealth" in the world. You can go out and make wealth every single day. The rich obtaining more of it doesn't mean there's less left over for you and I. People need to be able to cover their needs. Food, housing, healthcare, and I'd be open to arguments in favor of education. But I don't see income inequality as bad necessarily. I see massive amounts of people unable to cover those need…

> There isn't a finite amount of "wealth" in the world. Yes, there is. It is not limited, we can do more of it, but of course it is finite. It is also important that, the more wealth you have, the easier it becomes to make more of it. So, indeed, the rich obtaining more of it does mean there's less for you and me.

I can go outside and carve a wooden spoon out of a piece of fallen wood. I've just created wealth without taking it from anyone.

Even if I had to buy the wood from someone else, I took a $1 piece of wood and turned it into a $20 spoon. Wealth was just created without anyone loosing it. Wealth is infinite. Sure the amount of currency in circulation is finite, but currency isn't wealth.

> It is also important that, the more wealth you have, the easier it becomes to make more of it.

I agree--once you get to the point that you can make your wealth make more wealth for you, you've hit the point that you can scale beyond your time. Generally speaking having your wealth make more wealth requires investing your wealth, which is a good thing.

> So, indeed, the rich obtaining more of it does mean there's less for you and me.

This simply isn't true. See wooden spoon example above.

Re: Just Be Rich

#388

Post by allendoerfer » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 10:04 AM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #154

d_silin wrote: post #7

A lot of people who are just as smart and motived as Elon Musk or Steve Jobs will never be able to start their own companies and get rich. Because they have family obligations that take priority. Because they live outside high-income countries. Because they have no access to support network, so when they fail, they fall all the way to bottom. Because they may have made a crippling mistake in their pasts that now prev…

The thing that I'd expand upon is the support network. Somehow I have a wider range of friends and family than most people, and the thing that is missing from this conversation is that most people by far don't know anyone wealthy, especially if they're not themselves wealthy. The issue with that isn't just the money and connections themselves. There's a cultural gap of "I couldn't do that, only people on TV do that"…

Beside the fact, that being a doctor or working at Google makes you much more money on average than founding a start up, you anecdote also seems to be an anomaly: The most high profile start ups have been founded by immigrants. Even the one you have given as an example for a boring job.

Re: Just Be Rich

#389

Post by throwaways885 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 10:04 AM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #373

varispeed wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are born poor it is extremely difficult to escape poverty, especially because of high taxes that you are going to experience as soon as your education and determination lands you a good job. This severely inhibits your means to save or to invest. The progressive taxation is like a back-stop to keep everyone in check and prevent people from going up the class ladder. Meanwhile the rich, that are supposed to be…

Taxes isn't the reason why more people aren't richer. In fact, taxes is the reason why more people aren't poorer, because they pay for essential social services. At least in most countries, when receiving hospital bills you're not afraid to end up with crippling debt. The reason more people aren't richer is because of private property and the capitalist system. As a whole, humanity is pretty rich and is severely dest…

Give a viable alternative that doesn't descend into fascism. Capitalism is called the 'least worst' system for a reason, and some countries have an excellent QoL under it.

Re: Just Be Rich

#390

Post by ackbar03 » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 10:04 AM UTC

jiofih wrote: post #153

ackbar03 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree to some extent with the point your trying to make, the way you phrase and portray this sounds like more of an excuse than a strong argument. >Because they have family obligations that take priority This is on you. If your serious about it you should see this coming. Elons familial situation isn't exactly all flowers and roses. A lot of my friends who managed to start successful business started yong pre…

Your mention of Musk should raise an alarm to your sense of reality. He comes from a well off family, moved to Canada at 17 to attend university. This alone already puts him at the top 1% of humanity in terms of privilege. Then he went on to attend Stanford... Not that it takes away from any of his achievements, but you are failing hard at realizing what things actually look like. > It's also totally feasible to posi…

My point about musk was more about his own children and relationships and how "family obligations" should be an obvious consideration if you want to start your own company. You shouldn't really complain about it after the fact.

But fair enough, I'm not going to argue too much. Reading through the comments it seems that access to decent education and a stable family seems to be a generous assumption for many people around the world. I would say where I grow up in Asia, cases of abusive/dysfunctional families tends to be less than the west, and people in general have decent access to and awareness of the importance of education. There are a fair number of successful entrepreneurs who used to be villagers, mostly because a fairly large portion of people were farmers back then