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OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

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Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#261

Post by jimmy2020 »

pessimizer wrote: post #255
jimmy2020 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The value in the market is the subject of the parent thread. As I said, it's a tactic to change the subject. Instead of focusing on actions with bad faith, change the subject by saying they have a lot of money so Amazon is allowed to be competitive and fork the code. > AWS is just offering customers what they want. No. it's not AWS improving some services. It's about a multi-billion dollar company launching a campa…

Forking OSS isn't bad faith. If you want to make people pay you, make your software proprietary. In that case, however, you wouldn't get the free ride into the market that being OSS gives you.

Yes. This is how you discourage people from doing OSS. "You can't stop me" argument leads to a slippery slope and if you care about the open-source you see it differently. Not because you can, but because of the consequences of your doing.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#262

Post by bombcar »

parhamn wrote: post #76

> and we don’t ask for a contributor license agreement (CLA) Makes me wonder what these are for (copyright transfer) and why they decided it’s not needed. It also makes me wonder if this sort of thing has ever been taken/tested in court or if it’s paranoid friction with little value add.

A copyright transfer would easily smell to people "Amazon is going to change the license at some point in the future to duck us over Elasticsearch-style". They're trying to avoid that smell.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#263

Post by busterarm »

bmcahren wrote: post #143

I feel Amazon took the feedback from the DocumentDB/MongoDB fiasco to heart and made positive change in their approach. DocumentDB is a closed source proprietary database created by Amazon to emulate the MongoDB API. Think Google's Dalvik runtime vs Sun/Oracle's JVM. This time around we have an open source fork of ES with big backers all contributing and very permissive licensing. In both cases, Amazon gets to implem…

On the other hand, MongoDB is already sort of obsolete and trending towards death by the time that all ended up happening while ElasticSearch is hot and "new".

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#264

Post by galaxyLogic »

busterarm wrote: post #226
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a viral open source license, it literally requires open sourcing code, there's nothing proprietary about it except that we allow a council of elitist snots to decide what is and isn't Open Source(TM), and they have decided Google and Amazon support is more important than viable businesses which are building open source businesses.

The SSPL literally violates Freedom 0. > The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0). And though we're talking about open source instead of free software, without Freedom 0, the software still might as well be proprietary. Edit: It also violates Rules 1, 5, 6 & 9 of the OSD. So no, let's not call it "open source"

Could you provide a link to explain how it violates "Rules 1, 5, 6 & 9 of the OSD"? Thanks

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#265

Post by nomel »

stavros wrote: post #149
throwaway823882 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is Amazon too big and a bully? Is Starbucks too big and a bully? Sure, they force Mom and Pop shops to close by out-competing them, and that sucks. But bullying? I believe that's just Capitalism. Or say you're 6'6 and weigh 230LBS and you join a football team full of people who are 5'9 and 175lbs. Are you a bully just because you're bigger? ES basically handed them a platter with a goose laying golden eggs and a si…

> Is Starbucks too big and a bully? Sure, they force Mom and Pop shops to close by out-competing them, and that sucks. But bullying? I believe that's just Capitalism. I'd say it's more like a mom-and-pop coffee shop giving free coffee to patrons hoping to make money on cookies, and Starbucks coming in, taking the free coffee, opening a nice stand right next to the shop and selling the coffee they got for free. I'm ha…

How is it unethical if ES chose to explicitly allowed it with the license they picked? The analogy would have to include a sign under the free coffee that literally said "Feel free to sell this free coffee for profit!", for it to be accurate.

I don't see how it's unethical if you do something that someone said was perfectly fine to do. "Obvious chosen outcome" comes to my mind long before "unethical".

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#266

Post by pessimizer »

lacker wrote: post #243
galaxyLogic wrote: post #233

I wonder if ES had originally been AGPL licensed would that have helped them? If Amazon adapts AGPL code to integrate it with their own infra=structure doesn't that in fact mean that all of Amazons' software-based infra-structure would become AGPL as well, and thus easily reproduced by Google Cloud, MS Cloud, Oracle Cloud etc.? Or even inhouse? In other words wouldn't it mean it would be easy to replicate the Amazon…

Amazon just wouldn't do that. They would either not offer it as a service, or make a clone from the beginning like they did with MongoDB. In general none of the cloud providers are actually willing to comply with the AGPL license.

Offering the unaltered software as a service, or forking it and releasing all of your changes under AGPL does comply with AGPL.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#267

Post by jen20 »

ballenf wrote: post #73
jnwatson wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it price gouging if the price is on the tin? It isn't like there's a "surprise" as to how much they charge, and it isn't like there aren't a dozen alternatives including DIY. I'm the first to say that AWS is too expensive, and I vote with my wallet (and the company I work for by proxy). But I'll never claim that there's any gouging involved.

Price gouging is the practice of using outsized leverage in a particular market to charge excessive prices. Like snow shovels doubling in price after a snow storm. Or $10 water bottles after a hurricane. So for AWS the term is arguably correctly applied. But I'd be more worried about the market if AWS was artificially undercutting pricing because it would kill the incentive to create competitors or innovation in the…

> So for AWS the term is arguably correctly applied.

Can you elicit the argument by which this is correctly applied?

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#268

Post by busterarm »

mumblemumble wrote: post #150

It's been said that the best way to fortify your business is to use your clout to make the world inhospitable for adjacent businesses. As someone who is not currently in the cloud, that idea strikes me as being very pertinent to what's happening here. Increasingly many technologies are becoming cloud-only, or have non-cloud offerings that are decidedly second-class. Elastic offers on-prem support. I doubt Amazon will…

Elastic's on prem support amounts to little more than an onsite where they explain to you how the Java Garbage Collector works. EVERY detail about tuning your clusters derives from keeping the Java GC from ruining your day.

There's some index template optimizations but any semi-competent engineer or dba should be able to figure all that out (it's literally all in the documentation about what not to do).

You'll still be able to pay a consultant to come help you -- they don't have to be from Elastic.

In fact, it seems like Amazon just created an industry for third party consultants here.

Re: OpenSearch: AWS fork of Elasticsearch and Kibana

#269

Post by jillesvangurp »

sdesol wrote: post #78

Will be interesting to see the resources that AWS will throw at this. You can get a sense of the resource that elastic.co is throwing at elasticsearch at https://public-001.gitsense.com/insights/github/repos?r=gith... I'm currently indexing the fork, so in about an hour or two, I'll provide the insights for the fork as well.

I scrolled back through the commits. It looks like they've been removing traces of x-pack, Elastic branding, licensing checks, etc. since the beginning of March. So far it looks like one person is doing the bulk of all that work.

If there are new features, I haven't seen any. The real question is do they have a team for new feature work that they are putting together or is this just a fork that is doomed to fall behind as Elastic's huge team continues to develop their code base fixing bugs that will never get fixed on the Amazon fork, adding features that will never get fixed, eventually releasing the 8.0 release that has been in the works for two years, etc.

I don't see any evidence that they have that team so far. They're paying a few people to go through the moves of forking but I don't really see a grand vision beyond that so far.

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