RMS addresses the free software community • Hacker News Board

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#201

Post by javagram » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

MrRadar wrote: post #119

Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

Not to mention how badly he mismanaged the paid staff of the FSF which prompted them to unionize: https://twitter.com/paulnivin/status/1377079987950395393 I think, if anything, this is the strongest argument for why he should not be in a leadership position at the FSF.

This appears to be about events that are at least 15 years old, if not older?

Does sound like a pretty terrible manager. An unpaid volunteer position on the board doesn’t really seem like the position where these problems would happen again. And they weren’t the reason he got in hot water - that was all related to a media firestorm over Minsky/Epstein.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#202

Post by craigsmansion » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

dividedbyzero wrote: post #149

mhh__ wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. GCC plugins were a stallman thing, LLVM was even offered to the FSF at one point IIRC. Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so?

> Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. I know pretty much nothing about this Stallman person, does he actually dislike people with children?

No.

"He was kind, attentive, and has a loving core. In simple language, he patiently explained to my son, then around 12, about the virtues of the GNU/Linux operating system"

https://whoisylvia.medium.com/richard-stallman-has-been-vili...

He doesn't deem "having children" as some sort of special accomplishment though, which might rub some parents the wrong way.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#203

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

davexunit wrote: post #123

Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

He's mistreated many FSF staff members, many LibrePlanet attendees, many GNU project contributors, etc. The fact that the public discourse is focused on the Epstein-related comments does RMS and the FSF a huge favor by pointing the spotlight away from the real issue which has been happening for decades .

It seems to me that the discourse was very deliberately focused on the Epstein-related comments by people who felt that'd be a good way to achieve the outcome they wanted. It's undoubtedly true that RMS is often rude and offensive, but this has long been widely known and publicly discussed, so a pressure campaign on those grounds would almost certainly have flopped.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#204

Post by ralfd » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

overboard2 wrote: post #182

chc wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't he write that Epstein's child sex trafficking victim being pimped to septuagenarian professor Marvin Minsky should be considered consensual sex and not rape, despite her attestations otherwise?

He said that Epstein may have coerced her to present herself as "entirely willing".

Which is reasonableto assume if she was a trap so that Epstein could get blackmail material. RMS argued she would present herself as older than 17 and seduce her targets.

What is most unclear to me in that whole kermuffle is that this strongly seems to be a hypothetical. She only said that she was instructed to target Minsky, but not that she did have sex with Minsky (or he with her.) I somewhere else read the claim that Minsky was accompanied with his wife, so he couldn't have slept with her even if he wanted to.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#205

Post by icebergonfire » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #174

icebergonfire wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and [he] spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better My reading of this in the context of the post is that he self-aware enough to strive to be better, and admits he has failed to do so in the past. > We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. Your response touches on something…

> My reading of this in the context of the post is that he self-aware enough to strive to be better, and admits he has failed to do so in the past. Just now? He hasn't changed for decades and has been informed his behaviour is something people have "to cope with" for his benefit and never seemed to make even a small effort to change. > As much as we would like people to grovel and apologize the perfect way... they ra…

> Then he's unfit for a leadership role, plain and simple.

I can't actually argue with your reasoning here. Although my personal take is that he deserves an additional attempt... I can also see why one wouldn't be willing to give him that role again.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#206

Post by vidarh » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

thewakalix wrote: post #85

sneak wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly in-person around MIT (just like Captain Crunch or Jake Appelbaum in the conference scene... informal until it wasn't), but a few have made it onto the web. See #2 here: https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-appendix...

1. rumors 2. a mattress with “obvious implications” which I doubt he found obvious 3. rms: “I’m suicidal, please date me” Regardless of whether or not this qualifies as “harassment” (semantic arguments being pointless), I don’t think this justifies Removing him in any sense.

I mean, I've had a mattress in an office before, and the implication was I for a time lived in the office. No sex happened there, just poor work-life balance.

A lot of the complaints against RMS seem like ableist assumptions about intent to me.

Some of his behaviours are clearly problematic, but so is piling on someone this way.

Frankly a lot of these attacks tells me more about the lack of empathy shown by the attackers.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#207

Post by koheripbal » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #156

koheripbal wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of those things will happen. We would be better off if we could remove those dishonest people from our communities here and elsewhere. Dishonest reporting, and amplifying of dishonest posts on social media is not something you will ever get an apology for, because those efforts were never meant to survive scrutiny. They were meant to create "pressure" to cause reputational damage. You cannot convince or engag…

>This is one of the reasons I believe social media sites should enact age-based voting. I am not sure this works, on HN for example is easy enough for a small mob to disappear articles by flagging them, on top of that we get no reason why things were flagged or any way to undo it. Account age or karma is not enough, we need much more, make it harder to share/downvote or flag , like by making someone type at least 60…

Accounts that act poorly, usually do so in multiple ways. Banning accounts for bad behavior will likely curb other undetectable bad behavior.

HN is a bit unique. I suspect it is less influenced by bad behavior because it is small enough to fly under the radar.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#208

Post by nextaccountic » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

an_mp_speaks wrote: post #150

nextaccountic wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree rms is unfit to be a leader, but as a member of the FSF board he is fit to give his opinion on what GPLv4 should be if it ever gets released. I'm trust FSF to do the right thing on "or later" licenses if rms is onboard, but when I see Red Hat removing funding to get him out of the board, well, this give me pause. https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/red-hat-statement-about-richa...

If you look at the FSF's 990, you will see that the Red Hat contribution amounted to about $7000 USD a year. It was a really negligible amount.

So why did they think they had any leverage?

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#209

Post by zajio1am » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

solosoyokaze wrote: post #188

zajio1am wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do not read his private webpage (which is full of his personal political opinions). RMS clearly separates his free software-related activities and other personal opinions.

The OP is on fsf.org.

But OP does not contain discussion about sex with minors. That discussion was (in the past) on his personal web stallman.org .

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#210

Post by chc » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

NotSammyHagar wrote: post #193

chc wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't he write that Epstein's child sex trafficking victim being pimped to septuagenarian professor Marvin Minsky should be considered consensual sex and not rape, despite her attestations otherwise?

Woah, can you provide a citation for that?

From emails posted here: https://selamjie.medium.com/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21...

> The announcement of the Friday event does an injustice to Marvin Minsky:

> “deceased AI ‘pioneer’ Marvin Minsky (who is accused of assaulting one of Epstein’s victims [2])”

[ ... ]

> We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing.