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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#121

Post by thewakalix »

imwillofficial wrote: post #92
henearkr wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These social skills are crucial in this role. Absolutely not. He is a theorist (if not the theorist) of Free Software. His role is paramount, he is literally the only human completely implacable regarding the degrees of freedom that should be guaranteed to algorithms and software. The whole movement he started has as well spurred the Creative Commons movement, that is an application to the same principles more spec…

So unwanted sexual advances on women or ok for theorists?

Yes, anyone is morally allowed to hit on anyone[1], even though chances are it won’t be reciprocated.

Of course, going too far without consent[2] is wrong. But merely initiating, and then listening, is not.

[1] Pedantry: as long as they’d be morally allowed to continue with consent. Pedophilia being wrong implies that hitting on children is wrong, for example.

[2] Note that it is possible to preemptively withdraw consent. Hitting on someone who previously said “don’t hit on me,” but hasn’t said it to you yet, is still wrong.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#122

Post by javagram »

DanBC wrote: post #16
jMyles wrote: post #6

Seems reasonable to me, though I am among the crowd who didn't read his initial statement as anything resembling a defense of Epstein.

Most people didn't read it as a defence of Epstein, but (as RMS says) as a defence of Minsky. It's that defence of Minsky that's a huge problem.

All the evidence we have public is that Minsky was innocent. He wasn’t even accused of doing anything bad.

The victim stated Epstein asked her to proposition Minsky, but she did not say he accepted.

Stallman’s defense was a hypothetical that probably would have been very similar to a courtroom defense of Minsky, that said since Minsky is both dead and not actually accused of the crime, no such courtroom scene would ever take place.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#123

Post by davexunit »

Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

He's mistreated many FSF staff members, many LibrePlanet attendees, many GNU project contributors, etc. The fact that the public discourse is focused on the Epstein-related comments does RMS and the FSF a huge favor by pointing the spotlight away from the real issue which has been happening for decades.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#124

Post by cryptoz »

mhh__ wrote: post #101
pydry wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there sources for rms's long history of sexual harassment?

I think the emacs virgin thing if it really was aimed directly at a young woman in the audience is not much better than sexual harassment.

I was shocked reading your comment - how could you know about an incident that I thought only 2-3 people witnessed, an event where I was present but few other people were?

Then I googled it, and it turns out that you are likely referring to a larger, different event where I was not present.

It seems like he did this a lot, then? He definitely harassed a young woman at an event I organized, and did a 1-1 version of this emacs virgin thing directly 'at' her. It was weird, creepy and I did my best to deal with the situation and help the audience member feel more welcome at the event after the harassment. She was visibly upset and very uncomfortable in the moments after he said it. It happened before a talk he was scheduled to give, as the audience was arriving and sitting down.

Had no idea that this wasn't the only time it happened. Didn't know there were other instances.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#125

Post by visarga »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #96
imwillofficial wrote: post #82

RMS is a statutory rape apologist, and a defender of a pedophile. As well as making young women creeped out with unwanted advances. Is this who we want to glorify?

> RMS is a statutory rape apologist, and a defender of a pedophile. Wasn't the entire point of his post to refute this interpretation of what happened? Does no one else notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

No, it's what ideology does to people. It makes us value abstract ideas over real persons. It's all based on ideas of purity and that impure people are somehow deserving of cancellation. If you side with "impure" persons, or even if you don't condemn them strongly enough, you're becoming impure yourself, that is their logic.

And for all this interest in purity they don't actually care about the people, their work, their aspirations, only that they obey the ideology.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#126

Post by cassepipe »

luckylion wrote: post #53
loloquwowndueo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We…

> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that wo…

I don't understand why you're getting downvotes. Thank you for acknowledging that there are a lot of our mental lives that is not primarily under the control of our reason. I think it opens the discussion to the spectrum of individual psychological variability. A much needed discussion as apparently some people can't fathom how other persons could differ from how they themselves function.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#127

Post by b215826 »

mhh__ wrote: post #105
jancsika wrote: post #98

That's great, but the problem seems to be RMS's disruption of development activities. This doesn't change that. For example: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00... Imagine taking the time to publicly explain to an out-of-practice dev why some technical feature is needed, then being accused of a "pressure campaign" that requires the out-of-practice dev to consult privately, "with people I have…

Someone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. GCC plugins were a stallman thing, LLVM was even offered to the FSF at one point IIRC. Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so?

> Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so?

While you may not care about it, GPLv3.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#128

Post by unityByFreedom »

b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

RMS does not call for that and it isn't necessary. He acknowledges his own tone-deafness. Plus, people understand editorials like those are interpretations of words. If you want the facts you look at the original source material and decide for yourself.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#129

Post by narag »

froh wrote: post #3

a companion to the "Statement of FSF board on election of Richard Stallman" one minute later https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-of-fsf-board-on-election-...

This bit is pure genius:

He has sincere regrets, especially at how anger toward him personally has negatively impacted the reputation and mission of FSF.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#130

Post by hota_mazi »

henearkr wrote: post #56
stusmall wrote: post #39

"Later in life, I discovered that some people had negative reactions to my behavior, which I did not even know about. Tending to be direct and honest with my thoughts, I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid…

> These social skills are crucial in this role. Absolutely not. He is a theorist (if not the theorist) of Free Software. His role is paramount, he is literally the only human completely implacable regarding the degrees of freedom that should be guaranteed to algorithms and software. The whole movement he started has as well spurred the Creative Commons movement, that is an application to the same principles more spec…

> he is literally the only human completely implacable

Not only is this assuredly false, but it's also the last thing we need in a position of leadership or even as a consultant.

Understanding nuances is paramount for these positions.

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