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RMS addresses the free software community

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Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#151

Post by philpem »

luckylion wrote: post #53
loloquwowndueo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We…

> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that wo…

Sounds almost like you're describing high-functioning autism. Yes you can learn by emulation and observing inputs and outputs and looking for patterns, but it's not a perfect method.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#152

Post by [deleted] »

koheripbal wrote: post #131
b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

Neither of those things will happen. We would be better off if we could remove those dishonest people from our communities here and elsewhere. Dishonest reporting, and amplifying of dishonest posts on social media is not something you will ever get an apology for, because those efforts were never meant to survive scrutiny. They were meant to create "pressure" to cause reputational damage. You cannot convince or engag…

[deleted]

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#153

Post by imwillofficial »

visarga wrote: post #125
TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> RMS is a statutory rape apologist, and a defender of a pedophile. Wasn't the entire point of his post to refute this interpretation of what happened? Does no one else notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

No, it's what ideology does to people. It makes us value abstract ideas over real persons. It's all based on ideas of purity and that impure people are somehow deserving of cancellation. If you side with "impure" persons, or even if you don't condemn them strongly enough, you're becoming impure yourself, that is their logic. And for all this interest in purity they don't actually care about the people, their work, th…

Yes, it is 100% idiology. I think pushing the idea that sex with minors is ok, is morally wrong. I think defending those who victimize others is morally wrong. I think victimizing students that you have influence over with poorly thought out advances is morally wrong.

This is my moral opinion on the subject. Infinitely subjective.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#154

Post by cryptoz »

infamouscow wrote: post #107
mplewis wrote: post #50

This is not an apology.

What exactly does an apology look like if not this?

The word 'sorry' could go along way. But in this statement, ctrl+f for 'sorry' -> 0 results.

Okay, let's try 'apologize' -> 1 result.

> Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.

He victim-blames by saying that people 'couldn't cope' with him, and he's apologizing to them (because they couldn't cope??)

There are a billion apologies better than this. Simply "I made mistakes and I'm sorry" with some explanation that he feels remorse or is otherwise understanding of the pain he has caused.

This text instead reads like a spiteful, upset piece where he explains how misunderstood he is. That's not even close to an apology.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#155

Post by linuxftw »

Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

A bunch of companies joined together and announced they didn't like Stallman. Tellingly, the left out the list of grievances, so we can just endlessly debate which 'issue' is the 'real' issue.

> FSF under Stallman kinda lost to open source anyway and hasn't really done anything besides virtue signal to others about how pure and ethical they are

Then why do you care at all about the FSF in the first place? It sounds like you're here just to spread rumors and opinions in this case.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#156

Post by simion314 »

koheripbal wrote: post #131
b215826 wrote: post #10

Now, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was mo…

Neither of those things will happen. We would be better off if we could remove those dishonest people from our communities here and elsewhere. Dishonest reporting, and amplifying of dishonest posts on social media is not something you will ever get an apology for, because those efforts were never meant to survive scrutiny. They were meant to create "pressure" to cause reputational damage. You cannot convince or engag…

>This is one of the reasons I believe social media sites should enact age-based voting.

I am not sure this works, on HN for example is easy enough for a small mob to disappear articles by flagging them, on top of that we get no reason why things were flagged or any way to undo it. Account age or karma is not enough, we need much more, make it harder to share/downvote or flag , like by making someone type at least 60 words and ban the accounts for abuse.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#157

Post by rbanffy »

ziml77 wrote: post #26

Short and to the point. I like an apology that doesn't read like an essay. The more they ramble on the less genuine they feel. (I still don't believe this apology should have been considered necessary though)

It reads as a non-apology.

It reads as "I'm sorry my own ways made you feel offended". The right thing to do would be to say "I'm sorry my actions offended you and I will not do that anymore".

It'd have been that easy, really. He just doesn't seem to understand that on any level.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#159

Post by objectivetruth »

zajio1am wrote: post #73
DanBC wrote: post #12

> Some have described me as being "tone-deaf," and that is fair. With my difficulty in understanding social cues, that tends to happen. For instance, I defended Professor Minsky on an M.I.T. mailing list after someone leaped to the conclusion that he was just guilty as Jeffrey Epstein. To my surprise, some thought my message defended Epstein. As I had stated previously, Epstein is a serial rapist, and rapists should…

> In many places this makes Minsky a rapist, whether or not he knew i) she was trafficked or ii) she was coerced or iii) her age. In most places rape, like most crimes, require both actus reus (victim was coerced) and mens rea (perpetrator was aware of that). This is a complicated by the age issue (as a mistake of age is often an explicit exception to mens rea), but in general you cannot be thief, murderer or rapist…

Nah, that's what the "statutory" in "statutory rape" means.

Otherwise, just saying "Your honor, I didn't know she was under 18" would be an automatic Get Out Of Jail Free card for kiddy diddlers.

Re: RMS addresses the free software community

#160

Post by solosoyokaze »

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #108
Osmose wrote: post #49

The Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot ski…

He has been treated unfairly many times and that is, completely independent of whether he's the best choice as leader for the FSF, wrong. You do it here: "the _other_times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia...". He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong. He applies normative principles to it and can't see why it's wrong (e.g., age of consent varies...why would…

> He wants to have a discussion about what makes sex between people of varying ages wrong.

That alone makes him unfit to lead anything (among the many other things he's done). I do not want to hear his opinion on this subject.

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