French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights • Hacker News Board

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#271

Post by pjerem » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:12 AM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #268

dopidopHN wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had jobs where I had to visit clients in Uk, France, Germany and Italy. It was often plan kinda last minute. I’m French and was living in Paris at the time. Of course, for all abroad stuff beside london ( Eurostar ), the plane was preferred. But for national travel, only one city was too far to reach with a early morning train ride. All other major cities are reachable by a 2 to 4h train ride ( city center to city…

AFAIK the French rail system is set up so that Paris-X is a good connection for most X, but travel between city pairs that don't contain Paris is much more difficult... because you have to travel via Paris.

Exactly that. And Paris is not really geographically at the center of France.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#272

Post by fy20 » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:16 AM UTC

I grew up in the UK and from a late teen until my mid twenties I travelled by train across the country every week or so. I took the train as it was convenient for my route (no changes) and it didn't make sense to have a car for the rare times I used it (I'd commute to work by train or bike). There were long distance busses, but the times weren't convenient and they had even less leg room than aircraft.

The one thing that still makes me wonder is how expensive trains are, or maybe more accurately how cheap budget airlines are. I'd usually pay ~£25 each way, and I'd book in advance and had a youth discount. Full price tickets if I'd just turn up on the day would be over £100, and closer to £200 for first class (which on this route was just a slightly bigger seat, no food). For the same price I could have flown to the other side of Europe for the weekend and paid for a hotel. During peak times often the trains would be completely full up (500 seats, and maybe another couple hundred standing), so the routes are not exactly under-utilised.

Do trains just cost more to build and run than airports and aircraft or what is going on here?

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#273

Post by jrockway » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:16 AM UTC

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #225

lumost wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when comparing driving to flying between destinations, it's highly likely that the flight will have a shorter duration. The big wrinkle in this comparison is that planes burn most of their energy in the ascent to cruising speed/altitude. Energy consumption per mile is likely to be much higher on a short hop flight where cruising altitude is never reached than a 12 hour transoceanic flight.

On the other hand short-haul flights don't climb to as high of altitudes. They only climb about 2/3rds as high. But then again the air is thicker so cruising is less efficient. Oh gosh, for want of data.

You have to assume that airlines have chosen a decent compromise here. Every wasted joule of energy translates to a higher fuel cost and a lower profit margin.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#274

Post by trainsplanes » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:21 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #245

chrisseaton wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll have to fly into Paris and add 3 hours to my already-long trip and make a totally separate train booking, and worry about if lose the train ticket if the flight is delayed? I don't know if you're American, but I think you've just got funny ideas about how trains work. You don't really need an advance booking - you just turn up, buy a ticket, and take the train. It's not a big deal - they go every hour or so be…

I am American, but having traveled around Europe and Japan, I can say with confidence that if you're traveling between cities you very often need to buy your ticket in advance and it's valid only for that departure. Your seat is reserved because the train can sell out, and they do. Plus, fares often go up significantly the closer the train is to being sold out (so days/weeks early can be a good idea). It's no "funny…

What? No.

I live in Japan and you absolutely do not need to book trains in advance, ever, for any reason. It's a good idea if you're planning to travel during peak hours on the first and last days of a major holiday period, but there is a free seating area that you can ride. The only downside is that you may need to wait a bit on the platform until you're squeezed onto the shinkansen. You're sacrificing some comfort this way, but it's not a strict need.

But that problem only occurs 3 weeks out of an entire year. Also, the normal free seating tickets don't have a reserved time. They're only limited by day.

And my experiences in Europe are similar. Show up, buy a high speed rail ticket, hop on a train and go to the next city.

I've only ever needed to reserve tickets in two countries: one was dealing with Amtrak in the US, and the other was trying to take a train in China between two cities in the midst of the biggest holiday of the year. Other than that, it's always been a show up, get a ticket, and hop on 5 minutes later sort of deal.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#275

Post by mkoubaa » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:32 AM UTC

ddevault wrote: post #148

underdeserver wrote: post #12

I'm not an economist, but wouldn't it have been better to tax the carbon emissions? If you could offset the carbon emissions for 10 EUR, maybe add 12 EUR to the price of a ticket and use that money to buy carbon offsets? That way those who still want it can still fly, and we're at net negative emissions.

>I'm not an economist The last thing we need is the insights of an economist when it comes to solutions to climate change. It's thanks to economists that we're still dealing with the problem in the first place!

There is at least one valid point here. Neoliberal economics led to a lot of wealth creation and economic growth, which increases CO2 emissions.

But it also helped prevent large scale wars which may have emitted loads of CO2.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#276

Post by mkoubaa » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:33 AM UTC

ashtonkem wrote: post #265

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never really bought this argument. Poor people aren't taking regular flights or driving SUV's. Climate change is a problem caused by the consumption habits of the wealthy, not the poor.

Fuel taxes tend to hit rural people pretty hard, because they drive a lot of miles and most of it is non-optional. If you live in Paris you can just decide not to drive, which won't work as well for you in rural France.

This post is about flights, not fuel taxes

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#277

Post by ornornor » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:35 AM UTC

fy20 wrote: post #272

I grew up in the UK and from a late teen until my mid twenties I travelled by train across the country every week or so. I took the train as it was convenient for my route (no changes) and it didn't make sense to have a car for the rare times I used it (I'd commute to work by train or bike). There were long distance busses, but the times weren't convenient and they had even less leg room than aircraft. The one thing…

I think this has to do with privatization. If trains were run by the government (sure, less efficient but also no need to feed greedy shareholders), it would be much cheaper.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#278

Post by mkoubaa » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

hourislate wrote: post #29

medium_burrito wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because light rail/bus to airport is cheap, and $25 fares are cheap. And the trains are expensive. Now, why is flying so cheap vs a train? The whole the US government essentially gives away 737s at a loss to employ people might be one part of it? Nobody is giving away free trains that I know of.

>The whole the US government essentially gives away 737s at a loss Did you mean Boeing? I imagine flying is cheaper because the cost associated with the Rail Infrastructure is much higher than with the open sky and aircraft.

It's hard to believe we are successfully giving Boeings to France when the only major competitor to Boeing is a French company (Airbus). If we actually are I am curious about the story behind it

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#279

Post by jsty » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

ornornor wrote: post #277

fy20 wrote: post #272

I grew up in the UK and from a late teen until my mid twenties I travelled by train across the country every week or so. I took the train as it was convenient for my route (no changes) and it didn't make sense to have a car for the rare times I used it (I'd commute to work by train or bike). There were long distance busses, but the times weren't convenient and they had even less leg room than aircraft. The one thing…

I think this has to do with privatization. If trains were run by the government (sure, less efficient but also no need to feed greedy shareholders), it would be much cheaper.

Whilst there might be some gains from bringing everything under one roof, cutting out the need for shareholder returns isn't going to do much for the average ticket price - IIRC most train companies in the U.K. have long-run profit margins of 2-3%.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#280

Post by vbarrielle » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 5:51 AM UTC

fy20 wrote: post #272

I grew up in the UK and from a late teen until my mid twenties I travelled by train across the country every week or so. I took the train as it was convenient for my route (no changes) and it didn't make sense to have a car for the rare times I used it (I'd commute to work by train or bike). There were long distance busses, but the times weren't convenient and they had even less leg room than aircraft. The one thing…

Unfortunately yes, airplanes have less infrastructure costs than trains. Once you airport is built, you are potentially connected to any other airport. For trains you still need to build thousands of miles of rails, with complex infrastructure to allow them to change directions.

And rails need permanent upkeeping, it's not a one time investment.