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French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

reuters.com

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Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#261

Post by dopidopHN »

martinald wrote: post #175
ajross wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no reason to fly short distance if you want to go from city center to city center. In France. In nations like the US (outside the DC-to-Boston corridor anyway) without a well-designed and -maintained rail infastructure, 1-2 hour flights are routine and not really replaceable with other options. Infrastructure investment pays off for decades and decades, and Europe has done really well here. > However, if y…

Sorry, this is totally not true in Europe either. Yes high speed rail is great for a few routes (I'm a huge supporter of it!). But outside of these key routes flying will always be better. Europe has absolutely enormous levels of flying. The amount of city pairs in Europe which are a 1-2hr flight and more than 4 hours on trains are very high. Outside of maybe some routes in UK/France/Netherlands/Belgium/(western) Ger…

I had jobs where I had to visit clients in Uk, France, Germany and Italy.

It was often plan kinda last minute.

I’m French and was living in Paris at the time.

Of course, for all abroad stuff beside london ( Eurostar ), the plane was preferred.

But for national travel, only one city was too far to reach with a early morning train ride. All other major cities are reachable by a 2 to 4h train ride ( city center to city center )

The city is question is Toulouse. It’s just take too long from Paris. I Had to fly for this one.

Marseille,Lyon,Lille; Strasbourg, Metz, Bordeaux,Nantes, Montpellier, Rennes.

All those cities, I was able to take the first train in the morning. Do the fucking thing. Have dinner there on the client. And fall asleep in the last train. Waking up a midnight or so in Paris.

I had the choice to take a plane. But for the route in question in the article, it was consistently suboptimal.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#262

Post by ashtonkem »

wut42 wrote: post #104

While the reason is honorable, I can't help but think this is an attack on poor/middle class people. Traveling by train in France is quite expensive, and very annoying some times (I live in a lost country-side, and if I want to travel to my parents, it's a three to four train ride, taking about 8 to 10 hours). Ok, plane wouldn't help in most cases either, but the train offering got a lot gutted over the years and it'…

Are airplane rides actually cheap, or are they heavily subsidized?

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#263

Post by presentation »

ur-whale wrote: post #55
medium_burrito wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because light rail/bus to airport is cheap, and $25 fares are cheap. And the trains are expensive. Now, why is flying so cheap vs a train? The whole the US government essentially gives away 737s at a loss to employ people might be one part of it? Nobody is giving away free trains that I know of.

> why is flying so cheap vs a train? In France, the answer is simple: the train company is basically a monopoly (owned via a very thin veil by the state). They are therefore, like all entities not subjected to competition: - expensive - unreliable - low quality of service overall (atrocious food, disgustingly dirty bathrooms, in-seat power supply almost never works, internet non-nexistant).

After living in various Asian metros it really does seem that private markets have done wonders for quality of service - I live in Japan now, but while it isn't cheaper per se, it's definitely a phenomenal quality of service, and far from the only great system I've seen in the region.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#264

Post by [deleted] »

GuB-42 wrote: post #179
lovasoa wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying is actually much more dangerous than driving. The risk is to destroy the environment that sustains life on earth. This does not even compare with the risk of a car or plane accident.

If you are alone in your car, flying and driving are in the same ballpark when it comes to emissions. Trains are much, much lower. Especially considering that in France, most lines are electrified and 70% of production is nuclear.

[deleted]

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#265

Post by ashtonkem »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #134
wut42 wrote: post #104

While the reason is honorable, I can't help but think this is an attack on poor/middle class people. Traveling by train in France is quite expensive, and very annoying some times (I live in a lost country-side, and if I want to travel to my parents, it's a three to four train ride, taking about 8 to 10 hours). Ok, plane wouldn't help in most cases either, but the train offering got a lot gutted over the years and it'…

I never really bought this argument. Poor people aren't taking regular flights or driving SUV's. Climate change is a problem caused by the consumption habits of the wealthy, not the poor.

Fuel taxes tend to hit rural people pretty hard, because they drive a lot of miles and most of it is non-optional. If you live in Paris you can just decide not to drive, which won't work as well for you in rural France.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#266

Post by dopidopHN »

pochamago wrote: post #107
xalava wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is pretty exceptional in its lack of rails. There is also a Seattle-San Diego. Enjoyable as a tourist, but probably not suited for business purposes except in the last portions. In France some high speed trains go now directly to airports (CDG,LYO). So it is becoming possible to chain a plane and a train in a few scenarios.

It's not really that the US lacks rails, we have the largest rail network in the world. The problem for passenger rail here is population density. France is three and a half times denser, and Japan is nearly 10x. I think they would also struggle a bit more to justify rail costs if they were as spread out as the US.

Take into account the confort and speed of the European train. I was shock in my first Amtrak travel. ( then I took a greyhound )

That play a role in usability. It’s a good environment to work, for instance.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#267

Post by presentation »

allendoerfer wrote: post #45
flavius29663 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trains are heavily subsidized in Europe. E.g. Germany paid 17 billions in a single year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_subsidies#Europe How many 737s would that buy, per year? around 40-50? This is Germany alone, the rest of Europe is just the same

Deutsche Bahn has a (quasi) monopoly on German long-distance trains and is state owned. It has to operate some connections at a loss. It also maintains the railways. German streets a build by the state, not by Volkswagen or Mercedes Benz. Airports are owned by local governments and often a loss-leader, sometimes epic disasters (with the exception of Fraport). It is extremely hard to compare trains and argue about whe…

I find it silly that people think that train fares should cover a train's value. Few people are riding trains just because they really love to sit on a train. The value is in that you got from point A to point B. Unsurprising that East Japan Rail is super profitable, given that they're only partially a train company - rather they're a real-estate play that builds human conveyor belts into shopping/apartment/office complexes they control.

Ordinarily I am skeptical of private enterprise to serve the common good, but in the case of the public transit system here in Japan and other Asian metros it really does seem to have produced great outcomes.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#268

Post by adrianN »

dopidopHN wrote: post #261
martinald wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, this is totally not true in Europe either. Yes high speed rail is great for a few routes (I'm a huge supporter of it!). But outside of these key routes flying will always be better. Europe has absolutely enormous levels of flying. The amount of city pairs in Europe which are a 1-2hr flight and more than 4 hours on trains are very high. Outside of maybe some routes in UK/France/Netherlands/Belgium/(western) Ger…

I had jobs where I had to visit clients in Uk, France, Germany and Italy. It was often plan kinda last minute. I’m French and was living in Paris at the time. Of course, for all abroad stuff beside london ( Eurostar ), the plane was preferred. But for national travel, only one city was too far to reach with a early morning train ride. All other major cities are reachable by a 2 to 4h train ride ( city center to city…

AFAIK the French rail system is set up so that Paris-X is a good connection for most X, but travel between city pairs that don't contain Paris is much more difficult... because you have to travel via Paris.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#269

Post by adrianN »

pochamago wrote: post #107
xalava wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is pretty exceptional in its lack of rails. There is also a Seattle-San Diego. Enjoyable as a tourist, but probably not suited for business purposes except in the last portions. In France some high speed trains go now directly to airports (CDG,LYO). So it is becoming possible to chain a plane and a train in a few scenarios.

It's not really that the US lacks rails, we have the largest rail network in the world. The problem for passenger rail here is population density. France is three and a half times denser, and Japan is nearly 10x. I think they would also struggle a bit more to justify rail costs if they were as spread out as the US.

There are dense areas of the US where passenger rail could be much better than it is. Around Boston-Washington for example.

Re: French lawmakers approve a ban on short domestic flights

#270

Post by Xixi »

crazygringo wrote: post #245
chrisseaton wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll have to fly into Paris and add 3 hours to my already-long trip and make a totally separate train booking, and worry about if lose the train ticket if the flight is delayed? I don't know if you're American, but I think you've just got funny ideas about how trains work. You don't really need an advance booking - you just turn up, buy a ticket, and take the train. It's not a big deal - they go every hour or so be…

I am American, but having traveled around Europe and Japan, I can say with confidence that if you're traveling between cities you very often need to buy your ticket in advance and it's valid only for that departure. Your seat is reserved because the train can sell out, and they do. Plus, fares often go up significantly the closer the train is to being sold out (so days/weeks early can be a good idea). It's no "funny…

I've definitely seen TGV sell out in France, and would recommend buying your ticket in advance, depending on the trip. SNCF is sadly taking the airline fare route, with intricate pricing and non-sensical fare (sometimes 1st class is cheaper than 2nd class, and I'm not sure two people riding the same train pay the same price...). I hate this system with passion.

But unless it changed recently, it's not quite like that with the shinkansen in Japan. I would usually buy a ticket in advance for a late time trip around 10pm (with reserved seat), just in case all shinkansen are sold out (never happened, but I'm the anxious kind). On the date of travel when I'm ready to leave I just go to the train station, and ask at the counter to change my ticket for the next shinkansen. It's completely free, including the reserved seat, although maybe that's only for the Nozomi shinkansen? Not sure for Kodama/Hikari. Never had an issue with the next shinkansen being full, but maybe I've just been lucky.

I was mostly traveling between Osaka and Tokyo, where there is one shinkansen every 6 minutes at rush hour, and at worst one every 20 minutes. So in practice the waiting time was practically nil, and I loved the flexibility of being able to decide until the last minute to either dine out in Tokyo with my friends, or simply head back home earlier.

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