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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#851
post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you’ve just never had to deal with a real actual problem in your life I don't follow how you made that assumption about OP of the comment

You wouldn’t ask that question if you had.

But that's still rudely assuming that there is only one kind of " real actual problem in your life", meaning = problem with money and/or unemployment.

Is having to make a decision to take your child off life support a "real actual problem in your life"? How about being told that your visa won't be renewed and you have to leave your entire life, job, friends and family behind and move somewhere else? Is that a "real actual problem in your life"? How about a cancer diagnosis? A cheating spouse?

Not all "real actual problems" in life have to be related to money - you can have plenty of it and still be in an extremely difficult and distressing situation in your life, which won't naturally lead to increase in violence(cancer diagnosis is probably one of the worst events you can have in your life and yet I cannot imagine it's corellated to increase in violence rates at all). I frankly also find the attitude of the previous poster to be condescening and jugemental.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#852
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr.

>Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that. Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare? >Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I jus…

> Sorry, are you seriously trying to claim an HSA is better than universal healthcare?

It's not an HSA and nothing else. It looks like it's similar to my employer plan which is actually more generous than some universal systems - I/my partner use about the same services here and in Australia and I pay less here. Mainly because universal systems don't always cover dentists/specialists/mental health.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#853

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#854
post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, it is all anecdotes from my dad (some of which I observed first hand). He worked for unions for half of his career and then intentionally uprooted us to move to a right to work state purely to escape the unions. He moved up the ranks and ended his career as the general manager of a manufacturing facility. The next county over was heavily unionized. The contrast in the two counties was notable. The industry in…

What were the 2 counties and in what state. I'm sure this is all true but I like verify.

They were Horry and Georgetown, SC.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#855
post #396
post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon moving into these impovershed areas, becoming the majority employer, and having absolute influence over the local governance and electorate they themselves employ makes these places de facto a company town. Brilliant move, totally evil genius move, but brilliant.

So let me get this straight: companies shouldn't be investing money into revitalizing impoverished areas?

> companies shouldn't be investing money into revitalizing impoverished areas?

Isn't that what taxes are for?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#856

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am asking for it but what the hell. I was a union member back in the last 1980s through 1990s early. I was in a low skilled job where we paid our dues and got exactly nothing for it. Oh we had a wonderful contract that specified it all. It was great for basically keeping anyone new boxed in. Each quarter if we were lucky we got a visit by our local union rep in her Mercedes which cost more than many of us made a ye…

Unions also start boxing out new experienced employees. The railroads have no way to bring in experienced workers from other industries because everyone is mandated a certain starting wage by the union...entry level wages ($50k) plus overtime. Looks exactly like regulatory capture.

You see this in a lot of industries that are unionized, if you move across the country or have a life change and are in a unionized environment you can be screwed by a) losing seniority and b) comp can drop.

Had a friend who was a pilot. Personal situation - moved, wanted to live in base rather than deadhead yadda yadda - you start off at ground zero at the new airline - literally next to guys with no time on type (and you could have thousands of hours on type - which is years of work).

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#857

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So let me get this straight: companies shouldn't be investing money into revitalizing impoverished areas? No, they should do so, just not be so exploitative about it (e.g. deliberately going into areas full of desperate people, for the reason of using that desperation to exert maximum control with minimum accountability).

The lowest paid person at Amazon is earning well over the median wage in Bessemer, Alabama. Amazon could probably have no problem staffing the center at $11/hr there, but they're paying $18-$22 instead. How on earth can you define that as 'exploitation'? It's borderline charity, given the observable labor market equilibrium there.

Is the lowest Amazon job as easy and safe as the below median jobs in Bessemer?

Speedwalking an Amazon warehouse carrying objects, run by hyper-optimizing automation that times tasks to the second, is different from leaning on idle cash register at McDonalds, or slowly pushing a vacuum cleaner.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#858

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the process I debated reaching out to one of those payday loan places, despite the fact that I knew they were scams. Because they're not, the idea that they are is paternalistic bullshit from the kind of people who get their news from John Oliver. Debt can be dangerous, and payday loans are commensurately more so due to their high rates. But debt is a _tool_, and just like middle- and upper-income folks can use…

I'm sorry but in Ontario, prior to January 1, 2017, the charge was $21 per $100 advanced, an effective interest rate of 14,299% (not a typo) That's not using debt as a 'tool', that is weaponizing it against those can't fend for themselves.

Honest question -- what's stopping anyone from entering the market, offering much lower interest rates than that, and outcompeting all existing participants?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#859
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let me get this straight: companies shouldn't be investing money into revitalizing impoverished areas?

> companies shouldn't be investing money into revitalizing impoverished areas? Isn't that what taxes are for?

Where do you think taxes come from?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#860

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you're not kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessemer,_Alabama#Economy "Crime increased following the rise in unemployment and social disruption from the decline of manufacturing industries in the area. As of 2019 Bessemer ranks first in terms of violent crimes for US cities with 25,000 or more people." Population has fallen from its peak in 1970 of 33k to 26k today. Thanks for the reference. EDIT: Also hom…

I'm stupid, but why does unemployment cause violent crime?

Because our species derives from irrational ape-like ancestors and entirely too many of us don't realize we're now an ant colony.

Yes, 10,000 years ago our monkey brains were just fine at navigating the world as it existed. They're not just fine at it today. Today, even some of the simplest jobs require advanced skills in disparate areas, and frankly about 16% of the entire world population is not up to the task. Sixteen percent is the amount of the world population with an IQ at or under 85. These are people who struggle with tasks as simple as folding a sheet of paper into thirds, more or less perfectly, and then placing it into an envelope.

The world we live in, and almost certainly the world we're creating, has no place for these people. Even something as simple as receiving merchandise on a dock in a warehouse requires some basic computer skills, from either operating a Windows or Linux machine and interfacing with SAP, Oracle's JD Edwards, or IBM's AS/400, to figuring out the proper layout of boxes on a wooden pallet to maximize storage space of the warehouse. Something your grandfather or great grandfather did with a 6th grade education, now requires a minimum of a high school education by necessity, if not by design.

That brings me to actual answer to your question... because they don't have the decency to lay down and die. Because inside every human is an irrational desire to live, even when you're no longer useful. I know, know... a long argument can, and likely will, be made that "every life is valuable", etc., so forth. I understand and even accept those arguments on an emotional level, because I am not a machine - I am a man, and because I find it morally repugnant to allow people to die because they have no economic value.

That said... clearly there are plenty of others who do not feel the same way. If you work on AI to streamline a process or aid in manufacturing, you feel this way. The people who employ you, feel this way. You cannot design an algorithm that replaces 7,800 jobs and then throw your hands up and say, "I'm just doing my job." We either have to decide that everyone is worthy of life, regardless of their intellectual abilities and their economic contribution, or we have to decide that's not the case. Right now, because no one is taking Universal Basic Income seriously, we're clearly deciding that your value is mostly - one could argue almost entirely - economically based. We have a few exceptions to this that I can think of off the top of my head - the clergy seem to provide some kind of non-productive "good" that enough people, in America at least, feel is worth the cost of supporting them. But the factory worker who makes widgets for your ConsumerGoodX that you bought, she apparently does not.

I would like to be wrong about this, but our actions as a society say otherwise. We reward companies that reduce their "human capital" and return the money that would be spent on those salaries to either expanding their operations or in dividends to their shareholders. We reward them with higher stock prices and increased demand to purchase those stocks. We reward them by purchasing their goods. We tell ourselves another story, because if you really thought long and hard enough about it, you'd likely have to do some serious soul searching. Most of us don't want to do that.

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