Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#251

Post by option » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

My parents had to be in union (during USSR days). In their experience, unless you are a buddy of union leadership you got to go on vacation during worst times of the year to the worst (if any!) places only. You are also getting the crappiest job assignments. And yes, you had to give up a non-trivial part of your already miserable salary as union fees. Basically being friends of union leadership was absolutely critical.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#252

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #221

aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

One person earning $15 Amazon in Bessemer is solidly middle class for that town. https://247wallst.com/special-report/2019/07/22/worst-cities...

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#253

Post by clydethefrog » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

lvs wrote: post #91

Can't believe they pulled this off. Incredible.

Who is in "they" in this context? Are you painting Amazon as the David in this situation versus the Goliath of dying US labour organisation?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#254

Post by duckfang » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

parliament32 wrote: post #199

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

Personally, it came from working for a massive union (government, not US) for many years. The downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all (the guy doing the bare minimum job description gets the same raises as you), wayyy too much focus on seniority (for promotions, vacation selection, etc), and overall just too many rules (for example, "unlimited vacation" works great with my cur…

> hard to fire bad performers

In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like.

> your merits don't matter at all

They don't either in the non-union corporate world either. They pay as little as they can get away with. They'll assign as much work as you can possibly do, and then pile on more, and set unreasonable demands. The moment you surmount them, there's more work.... But here's your COLI for the year.

And, it's a common and well understood in the tech field that if you want better pay, you job hop. An employer who's paying you X knows that X is enough, and won't give any real merit raise increases.

> wayyy too much focus on seniority

At least that's measurable, and better than managerial decisions of "I like this person" or "I don't like you". Been there and done that. And with a crummy manager in a union job, you at least have the union steward to represent you. Non-union, you have the unemployment line.

> overall just too many rules (example: unlimited PTO)

Really? You use unlimited PTO as an example?!? It's complete utter trash it's unlimited by simply not showing up to work at all. That's unlimited, and we all know you'd get fired if you did that. You'd also likely get the axe if you took off every Friday as PTO.

I would much rather have fair delineated and straight-forward rules for all to see and vote on, than the touchy-feely sounds good but not real faux-rules like 'unlimited PTO'.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#255

Post by marcinzm » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

I know a number of people in a large teacher's union and the stories indicate the union is bad for both good teachers and students. I've personally seen many great teachers leave for private schools and other public systems. The union rewarded the incompetent and did little for rampant administrator abuse.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#256

Post by tshaddox » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

jimbob45 wrote: post #205

_jal wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions don’t always contribute to a better outcome for their workers You can say this about anything. Getting a job doesn't always contribute to a better outcome for the unemployed. Getting healthcare doesn't always contribute to better health outcomes. Getting housing after being homeless doesn't always lead to a better life. > It’s hard to motivate a vote for unions when Amazon pays double the federal minimum wag…

Yeah, but this is the problem with the current debate around unions. Pro-union individuals aren’t willing to say, “Unions have some serious drawbacks“ and anti-union individuals aren’t willing to say, “Unions solve some critical issues for modern employees”. Instead, both sides (rightfully) call each other out on their biases and no voter feels able to trust either side.

I don’t think the debate is over whether there has ever been any benefit or downside from any union, but rather what the expected net benefit or downside is from any given union, and perhaps even more importantly, what rights union organizers, union opponents, and workers ought to have.

I think it’s pretty silly to quibble over whether someone will answer gotcha questions like “can you name one good/bad thing that has ever happened in a unionized/non-unionized workplace.” That’s just not relevant.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#257

Post by hrktb » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:55 PM UTC

brightball wrote: post #215

JCM9 wrote: post #176

It was clear getting these workers to unionize was good for the union... it was much less clear why it would be good for the workers. People can say what they want about Amazon but the reality is they provide a far better job, wage, and benefits than most. Apart from the broad sweeping messaging around corporations = bad, unions = the answer, it wasn’t really clear at all why a union would benefit workers here. As su…

This was similar to the Boeing situation in Charleston, SC. Boeing came in and brought great jobs with them. Then the union reps came in and started acting like everybody was being wronged somehow.

Why can't it be both ?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#258

Post by chrisseaton » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #214

chrisseaton wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why you would vote against your own collective interest Maybe they are not sufficiently confident that the union will act in their interest? Is that so crazy an idea? If you're in favour of unions then I guess you're in favour of workers being able to have a say in how they work. And if they don't want to work with a union then I can't understand how you can rationally do anything but say 'ok thank you for saying,…

You are saying in expressing the right to have a say in how they work, they chose to vote to not have a say in how they work? It's a pretty simple calculus. When the company spends twice the yearly payroll of the entire place on preventing the lowest of low workers on the totem pole from forming a union, maybe the company isn't acting in their best interests.

They said that they did not want to be represented by these specific people with this specific deal. Maybe they'd be happy to be represented by someone else as part of some other arrangement? I don't know, and neither do you.

But if that's what they say when asked what else should we do except honour that?

If you think it's absolutely inconceivable they could legitimately vote against it at all... I mean then why have a vote at all? Might as well unionise them by force against their will and impose the union leaders as unelected and unwelcome representatives? That'll empower 'em, right?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#259

Post by exabrial » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

Show me a well run union in the USA where they successfully compete against union union workers, their industry isn't being shipped overseas, and workers can optionally participate without having wages garnished.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#260

Post by belval » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

It started during a student summer job. I was taking care of lending canoes to people in a park. One canoe got visibly dirty so I brought a rag and some cleaner from home and just cleaned it.

I was reprimanded by another worker because according to whatever union full-time employee had, cleaning a canoe was a union job and by bringing my own rag and cleaner I was violating the union's chart of some shit.