Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#111

Post by GavinMcG » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #2

"The agency told Ms. Cunningham and Ms. Costa that it would accuse Amazon of unfair labor practices if the company did not settle the case, according to correspondence that Ms. Cunningham shared with The New York Times." That's a pretty nice piece of leverage to have in hand while negotiating a settlement. Edit: They were both UX/Design folks with Amazon, fired on April 10th, 2020. Costa was Amazon's first ever Princ…

It's effectively the same thing as Cunningham and Costa themselves saying they would pursue a ULP charge. It's just that in labor cases, the NLRB screens complaints first and then steps in to represent the complainant for complaints that are credible.

That is not a final determination, though: the piece of paper that Cunningham and Costa held does not say that the NLRB will find that Amazon did engage in a ULP and exact a penalty. It merely says that an NLRB attorney will represent Cunningham and Costa in resolving the matter.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#112

Post by ska » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

pje wrote: post #102

mycall wrote: post #42

Are there any apps to streamline the unionization of businesses? It would seem quorum discovery is the hardest part of creating a union -- who is ready to join. Being in a union myself, even with some of the political issues that come with it, I very much appreciate what they do for me.

Literally none of the hard problems in forming a union are technical. I can't stress this enough—the hard problems in organizing are much squishier and amorphous. You're trying to get a majority of people to feel like they have a personal stake in improving the material conditions of others. It's not quorum algorithms, it's not apps, it's not encrypted communication platforms. The hard part is organizing people .

> The hard part is organizing people.

That's the hard part of most things, to be fair.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#113

Post by auiya » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #69

dawnerd wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been using Target Staples, and Bestbuy more and while they don’t always have the same items, brand names end up being roughly the same price due to auto price matching and contractual minimum prices. Only times I’m using amazon is for cheap items no one else will ship. They’ve really just turned into AliExpress.

Same here, but I wonder if Target warehouse employees have been pissing in bottles all along and the news just never picked up on it.

Of course they do. And lots of other awful shit you'll see in this thread - https://twitter.com/BanishedBernie/status/137645587453380198...

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#114

Post by GavinMcG » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #92

seoaeu wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a pretty nice piece of leverage to have in hand while negotiating a settlement. Isn't that how things usually work? If one party does something illegal, then the other can offer a settlement using the threat of other legal action as leverage?

I think it's a pretty unusual situation in an unlawful termination negotiation, yes. That is: having a piece of paper in hand, from the Federal government, undeniably saying government intervention will happen if a settlement isn't reached. I believe this particular settlement, especially the one for Costa (based on Principal title and 15 years tenure), is going to be a very big number. It's also terrible timing for…

When you file a lawsuit, you get a summons to serve on the other party. That is "a piece of paper, from the government, undeniably saying government intervention will happen if a settlement isn't reached." The government intervention is in the form of a legal proceeding. But the summons certainly doesn't mean the government/judicial system has made up its mind about the substance of the suit!

Same here: the government intervention is in the form of a legal proceeding, it's just one that takes place within NLRB channels rather than in the judicial system. It doesn't mean the NLRB has made up its mind about whether a ULP was committed.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#115

Post by ska » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #104

lkrubner wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has much stronger labor unions than the USA, a legal requirement we forced on them when they finalized the constitution (Basic Law) of 1949. Since that time, compare the fate of the American auto companies (GM, Ford, Chrysler and American Motors) to German auto companies (Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, BMW). The American companies ruled the world, and then lost market ground, one went bankrupt, another was bought…

It should be noted that Germany's wage/GDP growth has been quite stagnant since the 1970s as well. Its auto industry has been successful, but that can be attributed to numerous other factors, like its effective education system, which puts a much heavier emphasis on vocational training, its engineering culture, and government policy focused on promoting auto manufacturing, all of which can counter-act the negative ef…

> Also, German unions are less antagonistic to management than American unions.

The same could be said in the other direction. Fundamentally they are set up differently, and one of the results is that corporate-union relationships are more collaborative in Germany, more combative in USA.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#116

Post by corin_ » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

goatinaboat wrote: post #86

corin_ wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're buying into propaganda about British unions, blaming them for the car industry is ridiculous, and when it comes to mining you seem to think that the mines would have lasted longer had unions not been against shutting mines?

you seem to think that the mines would have lasted longer had unions not been against shutting mines? At the time, the average ton of coal was costing double to extract than it was worth. Closing the loss making mines was inevitable but the viable mines could have remained open, and would have as there was still the demand for coal. The Germans do this right, their unions want their workers to have fair share of the…

> "British union leaders simply play workers against management for their own gain, then leave both workers and management worse off, but workers get the worst of it."

Again, you're buying into nonsense anti-union propaganda.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#117

Post by ska » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #108

jcranmer wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm hard-pressed to think of any example where a unionized labor force killed a viable industry (or even a single company). Even when I think of the cases where unions hurt the viability of the company, the primary cause of decline was poor strategy and decision-making on the part of the owners. Blaming unions for those cases seems to be a rather sleazy way for the owners to avoid any liability for their faults.

The US auto industry was extremely successful before the UAW took over. It's not a coincidence that all three of the Big Three auto makers got taken over by the UAW in the 1950s and 60s, and saw decline in the 70s. For another example, Bombardier in Canada was a successful airplane manufacturer, and the demands of its unions gradually sapped its international competitiveness. For yet another example, all the passenge…

> The US auto industry was extremely successful before the UAW took over

There is a real risk of correlation being confounded with causation here, but analysis in the area is tricky at best.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#118

Post by throwawaysea » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #2

"The agency told Ms. Cunningham and Ms. Costa that it would accuse Amazon of unfair labor practices if the company did not settle the case, according to correspondence that Ms. Cunningham shared with The New York Times." That's a pretty nice piece of leverage to have in hand while negotiating a settlement. Edit: They were both UX/Design folks with Amazon, fired on April 10th, 2020. Costa was Amazon's first ever Princ…

Would the labor board have provided such a convenient ruling if it were right leaning political activists masquerading as employees fighting for employee rights? For that matter why are the actions of political activists protected at all? From past discussions on HN, my recollection is that these two were not fighting for labor rights or wages or conditions. They were climate change activists that would spam employees with political activist content unrelated to work. Big tech companies are already very much taken over by left leaning ideology, and forcing companies to allow such employee activism seems highly inappropriate and bad for society.

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#119

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #70

MereInterest wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also a response to one of those reasons. > After Amazon told them that they had violated its external communications policy by speaking publicly about the business, their group organized 400 employees to also speak out, purposely violating the policy to make a point. So, Amazon fired then for publicly speaking about the business. Their statement saying that it was for violating internal policy seems deliberat…

> That Amazon had a policy against speaking publicly is not a point in Amazon's favor. Not to defend Amazon, but on this point, every job I've ever had included a policy that amounted to "do not speak publicly about the business." Do others think this is unusual?

[deleted]

Re: Amazon illegally fired activist workers, Labor Board finds

#120

Post by crocsarecool » Mon, Apr 05, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

dawnerd wrote: post #64

joana035 wrote: post #13

That's the reason why I don't buy anything from Amazon and prefer to pay a bit more to a local store instead.

Been using Target Staples, and Bestbuy more and while they don’t always have the same items, brand names end up being roughly the same price due to auto price matching and contractual minimum prices. Only times I’m using amazon is for cheap items no one else will ship. They’ve really just turned into AliExpress.

I felt like I had to remember how to shop other places online as I’ve been making my switch to less Amazon. I’m so tired of finding little business cards in all my orders to review the products. I gave a bad review on a vacuum cleaner, and the seller has been contacting me every few weeks to refund me if I take it down. I sympathize with sellers because I know it’s hard to sell anything less than a five star product on there. The whole system feels so broken these days.